Jess: 0:00

Hello Wanderers. I'm Jess and I'm Hannah, and welcome to Wicked Wanderings.

Hannah: 0:08

Hello Hannah, hi Jess.

Jess: 0:11

How's it going?

Hannah: 0:12

It's going how?

Jess: 0:14

are you? I'm good, we have a few milestones. Today we're doing our first long distance episode. I am in Mormonville with my sister Heather.

Hannah: 0:25

Hi, heather, hey, thank you for being a part of this chaos.

Heather: 0:29

I'm so excited. I love listening to you guys Yay.

Hannah: 0:33

We have a fan, a fan, it's fine.

Jess: 0:37

We have a fan. So this case today is really and this is why I wanted Heather to be a part of it. It is, it's close to home and it involves one of Heather's friends when she was younger, when you were 19. 19. And today is actually the 30th anniversary of when it happened. So do the math.

Heather: 1:02

I'm 49 folks. You don't look a day over 29.

Jess: 1:07

Thanks, and so December 14th 1993 is when it happened. So today is when it's when we're recording, not when it's released, but today's episode.

Hannah: 1:21

That's crazy to me because when you, when you decided that you wanted to bring your sister on and talk about this which thank you, heather, for doing that, because I'm sure it's not an easy thing to remember or talk about, but that's just crazy that you know, usually we record on Thursdays and this just happens to be the 30th anniversary.

Jess: 1:38

Yeah, it just happened to be a Thursday and it happened to be when I'm in Utah, so it worked out. It was meant to be Right. Yeah, so this is a case of some quadruple murders that happened one night in a place that is supposed to be filled with happiness and laughter and all these sorts of things. So we'll get started and, heather, feel free to interrupt anytime.

Hannah: 2:08

Yes, interrupt her, since I'm not there. Yeah, someone has to do it.

Jess: 2:13

So on December 14th 1993 at 10 pm, employees at Chuck E Cheese in Aurora, colorado. We're starting to close up for the night.

Hannah: 2:23

Wait, this happened at Chuck E Cheese. Yep, oh, come on, that's like a staple, like childhood fun play. Okay, sorry, keep going.

Heather: 2:29

Already, I'm pissed I know we went there many times.

Jess: 2:35

Did you, do you remember going there just when you were little? I remember when it was, what was it before Showbiz. Yes, that's right, the animatronics, yeah they are the gorilla.

Heather: 2:46

I just remember the ski ball.

Jess: 2:47

Yeah, so they just had a birthday party that ran a little over and were finally able to start their closing duties. At 10.05, a man walks out of the bathroom and walks towards a young woman, 19 year old, sylvia Crow. I'm like getting emotional. Okay, I'm sitting here.

Rob: 3:07

Focusing.

Jess: 3:08

Who is cleaning up the cellar bar. Her back is toward him as he walks up quietly, lifts the gun and shoots her in the head. Behind her right ear, another employee. Yeah, huh.

Hannah: 3:20

I just said, douche can help.

Jess: 3:21

Right. Another employee, 17 year old Benjamin Grant, is vacuuming and didn't hear the first shot, but he looks up and sees the man walking towards him. He doesn't have a chance to react before he is shot under his left eye. 17 year old Colleen O'Connor has just witnessed these murders and she freezes, she gets down on her knees and begs for her life to no avail and a shot in the head. Bobby Stevens, 20, was outside for a smoke break. He was able to get another shift to earn some extra money for Christmas and he wasn't even supposed to be there that night. He had heard some popping sounds from the inside of the building but just assumed it was balloons popping, since they were cleaning up. He walked back into the kitchen and started washing dishes as the gunman walked through the door and shoots him in the jaw. Bobby drops to the floor but is still alive. He has the wherewithal to play dead and the gunman leaves the room. He then goes.

Jess: 4:25

The gunman goes into the office where 50 year old Margaret Colbert or Colbert Colbert, I think, is how I remember it is counting the receipts for the day, and the gunman asks her to open the safe and after she does, he shoots her in her ear, according to court documents.

Jess: 4:41

He then grabs her purse, dumps it out on top of her and stuffs the roughly $1,600 that was in the safe, along with some key chains and Chuck E Cheese prize tokens, because you know, that's the important stuff, that's the most of them. Oh, my God, right, like was he planning on coming back and using those tokens? Ski ball yeah, for a ski ball. He sees Margaret start to move and then he shoots her again in the other ear and then he takes off. Bobby Stevens is able to get up and run to an apartment complex nearby and banged on a door to get help and to call the police. He was sent to Denver General Hospital and was the sole survivor of this rampage. Colleen O'Connor, benjamin Grant and Margaret Colbert had died, but Sylvia Crowe was still alive and was taken to the hospital where she was declared brain dead and was taken off life support the following day.

Jess: 5:39

The gunman, 19-year-old Nathan Dunlap, was a previous employee who wanted revenge for getting fired.

Hannah: 5:45

Oh, my word.

Jess: 5:47

He started working there in May of 1993 and was fired in July. He had only worked there for two months, then festered about it for five months and decided to act in December After the murders. I'm sure you'll have something to say about this next part, hannah. After the murders he had gone to a friend's house and bragged about what he had done. He then went to his girlfriend's house and proceeded to have sex with her after he had just killed four people.

Heather: 6:17

Dush canoe. Okay, okay, cycle path.

Jess: 6:19

Cycle Right, right.

Hannah: 6:22

Done that.

Jess: 6:22

Wow, yeah, I mean because what else turns you on besides? Seriously, I don't know about you, hannah, but I'd be messed up in the head if I had just killed four people.

Hannah: 6:35

I wouldn't even be able to function. Normal people. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Jess: 6:40

You know you didn't answer that question. You just said normal people. I'm just messing with you. Okay, moving on, Dunlap was unaware at that time that there was a survivor and that he had already been identified as the gunman. According to the show Death Row Stories, Dunlap's mom actually showed up to the scene of the crime along with the friends and families of the victims trying to figure out what happened, so it had hit the news before victims' parents were notified of it.

Jess: 7:10

Yeah, notified, thank you. Police talked to his mom and she didn't believe that Nathan had done it, but she said to them, if the police think he did, then she would get him down there to straighten it all out. And she was able to reach Dunlap at his girlfriend's house and she told him that the police were there looking for him and he needed to come home, and later on his girlfriend would testify that. He asked if hydrogen peroxide can get rid of gun residue and he went and washed his hands with peroxide, then showered before heading home.

Heather: 7:41

So did his girlfriend know at this time what he had done?

Jess: 7:43

I don't think she knew exactly what had happened. I'm not sure to be honest.

Heather: 7:49

I'm sure she knew that he because I'm sure he talked about it- and he had been bragging for months about doing it.

Hannah: 7:58

Do we know why he got fired?

Heather: 8:00

I read a news article that he trying to think if he wanted to leave early that day or whatever it was a busy day and the manager just said go, I don't need you, and so fired him that day. Oh shit, so I think it was, and I'm sure it wasn't that moment that you know, I'm sure it had been built up to that.

Jess: 8:20

Yeah, it was like a right Right, Right.

Hannah: 8:23

Cause that's not a reason to fire someone just off the bat like that. Right, that's what it must have been Okay.

Jess: 8:29

When speaking with police, dunlap initially said that he had heard what had happened from the news and then, after interviewing his girlfriend, they were able to get more information. Dunlap admitted to the police that he had been at Chuck E Cheese that night, but he had left around 9.20. Then, finally, the real story came out. Apparently, dunlap had been talking about getting revenge against the manager that had fired him for months. He had been talking about it with his friends around September and on that fateful December day he decided it was time.

Jess: 9:01

Dunlap went into Chuck E Cheese around 9pm. He got himself a ham and cheese sandwich and sat by himself to eat it. He played a few arcade games, called his girlfriend, and then, around 9.50, he went into the bathroom and waited for them to close and, like I mentioned in the beginning of the episode, at 10.05 he walked out of the bathroom and went on his rampage. Dunlap was arrested for the murders of Margaret Colbert, colleen O'Connor, sylvia Crowell, benjamin Grant, and his trial didn't start until 1996. But in the meantime yeah, so three years Dunlap's behavior in jail became erratic and he was experiencing violent outbursts, depression symptoms, and he would get to the point where he would take a shit and spread it all over his body and all over his cell, so he was going a little crazy. Did you know that?

Heather: 9:56

I didn't know that but that doesn't surprise me If someone who I don't know he wasn't okay apparently.

Hannah: 10:02

Yeah, so I know you haven't really obviously finished the story, but I'm surprised that he wasn't like in a mental institution instead of prison.

Jess: 10:12

Yeah, and that comes up and that is part of the situation regarding his sentencing is well, we'll get into that part. First of all, he has a family history of bipolar. His mom was bipolar. They would wake up to her walking around the house in the middle of the night. She would walk around the house naked. They would wake up to her throwing all their stuff out on their lawn and it was just really an unstable home and she used to abuse them Him and his younger sister and then his younger brother. But they don't mention much about his younger brother. But she was married to his stepdad and his stepdad was actually sexually molesting his sister and Nathan Dunlap walked in on it one night when it was going on and his dad noticed that he saw him and the abuse got worse. So he would beat the shit out of Nathan all the time.

Hannah: 11:07

That's a lot no. A kid to handle.

Heather: 11:10

He had his background about him and it helped me not feel more compassion for him, but a little more understanding. He was not okay. He didn't come from an okay background. His mom needed help. Yeah, yeah.

Jess: 11:25

Well, and I think, looking at it mental health wise is he didn't stand a chance really. He had an unstable living home. He didn't have a very good influence, parental influence at all.

Jess: 11:39

He had a good eye out of the house and he was also, I think they were living in not a good part of town and he had a history of armed robberies. And so you look at it and you say, okay, well, not everyone with bipolar goes on to kill four people, Right, he goes on to. And so I go back and forth because I want to feel compassion, especially as a mental health provider, but then at the same time it's like but there are people who experience the same things that don't do this.

Hannah: 12:11

It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously, but it you know, you wonder, yeah, he was, he had really shitty parents, but you wonder who else could have helped maybe stop this pattern. And it also it also kind of makes sense now why he killed people and then decided to have sex, because that kind of sociopathic behavior was. It was kind of shown to him by his stepfather in a way. You know, it's so. That kind of makes logicals like well, not all, I should say logical, that's the wrong word. It makes it makes sense for him.

Jess: 12:47

Yes, yes, and I guess his mom was in and out of institutions and hospitalized throughout his childhood as well, and there was just a lot of abuse and intimidation. So after he was experiencing these things, before he was tried, he was evaluated and found competent, but those evaluators who, yeah, competent to stand trial, but those evaluators didn't have access to his medical records or family history, and so they told the court that he was.

Heather: 13:21

I didn't hear any of it until like right now, like it wasn't broadcast that this was his background or that.

Hannah: 13:27

I remember hearing yeah, that that's crazy to me, because even as a behavior analyst, if I get a new kiddo, the first thing I do is a record review. How can you not look at past records? That that, oh my God, that doesn't. That doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah.

Jess: 13:46

And so that's why I honestly struggle. I'm having an inner conflict with this case because, for one, do I think he had a fair trial no, and we'll get into that in a little bit but also he murdered people that I know or person that I know.

Hannah: 14:01

Yeah.

Jess: 14:02

Yeah, having this inner conflict of like, yeah, I get it, but he's still a murderer. No absolutely, absolutely, yep. So the defense felt that the evaluation was biased, but they never brought it up during trial, or the fact that he may have had a mental breakdown during the killings, which I don't agree with because he had a lot of time to think.

Heather: 15:57

Yep. So I don't know if this is a good place to add this, but from what I remember hearing about the situation, he sat in the bathroom and pumped himself up too, like he just primed himself to get out and do what he was going to do and that kind of furiates me, it was premeditated. I mean, it was premeditated. Yeah, he planned on doing it Absolutely yeah, but he just, yeah, hidden that bathroom and talked himself into it.

Jess: 16:23

Yeah, so during his initial trial, the defense called no witnesses nor had any defense on fire. He was on his actions and they didn't bring up his mental health because they were worried that it would inflame the jury and that it didn't matter because it wasn't a factor for the death penalty. Your face, it's the 90s, yes, oh.

Hannah: 16:47

God.

Jess: 16:48

Yeah, so. So in that sense, do I think he had a fair trial? No, like his defense didn't do shit for him? Yeah, and at the same time there was a witness who was shot by him, who recognized him? Who recognized him? So how can you argue that?

Heather: 17:08

And it was the first in a long line of mass shootings Like this was before Columbine, yeah, yeah, so it was like a huge shock, I feel like.

Jess: 17:20

Yeah, and what's interesting, my sister has a journal of, so we never said who your friend was. Our friend was Sylvia Crow, so the first one that was shot, and they used to write letters back and forth because you know the 90s.

Heather: 17:38

Yeah, we didn't have cell phones. Our mom set us out the door with two dimes. Yeah, because we got in trouble. Find a pay phone.

Jess: 17:47

A different, a different world, and on the death row stories they talk about that being that year being a summer of violence, where there were a lot of senseless killings that went on, and she actually wrote Heather a letter. Do you want to read this? Yeah, I want to.

Heather: 18:05

Okay, so this was dated July 16th 1993. So it was probably about the time that he got fired, and I read later on in the letter she didn't work there at the time, she just quit a different job, so I don't know if she knew him much from work at all.

Heather: 18:23

So anyway, she just said just be happy that you don't live here. That's right. So many kids with guns, tons of people dying. I haven't personally known anyone who's died yet, but I always know someone who did know whoever died. So pretty interesting couple months before she was killed.

Hannah: 18:39

Like that gives me chills Right.

Jess: 18:41

That's like a foreshadow almost. Yeah, like a premonition, that's yeah, oh my.

Hannah: 18:47

God, Heather, how does I'm sorry, Jess, I'm sure you want to say, but no, how does it make you feel to talk about all this?

Heather: 18:55

It was hard, like I looked up all the letters and my journal entries and stuff and focused on my happy memories over in the past couple of weeks and let Jessica go down the rabbit hole of all the stuff that I don't love to think about. But so it is hard. We were friends since we were young. We grew up together. We were baptized the same day. We're both members of the Churches Christ, latter-day Saints. So at age eight is when we were baptized and girls camp, young women's, everything, all the activities, weekly activities. We shared lockers in high school. At the time this happened I was into my second year of college, I believe, and it was finals week when I found out.

Jess: 19:37

So yeah, she was living over here in Utah. I was here in.

Heather: 19:41

Utah at the time. But we did have a friend that worked with her at Chuck E Cheese and left. Her shift ended earlier in the evening and left right before it happened and I think that would be so hard.

Hannah: 19:54

Yeah, but you're keeping her memory alive, which is really beautiful. Sorry, jessica, go ahead, don't. Don't apologize.

Jess: 20:04

That's why I think it's important to honor that, especially today being the 30th year anniversary and I know I have to talk about the douche canoe just because I mean, he's a big part of the story, but I am glad Heather's here to kind of give the personal account of everything that happened. So we are going to take a quick break and we want to thank Lynn from Springfield. Thank you, lynn. Thanks Lynn and Courtney from Massachusetts. Thank you, courtney. Thank you, courtney, heather from New Jersey, chelsea from Utah and Amber from Idaho for all your contributions. You guys are amazing and thank you for listening and supporting the podcast, because this is our dream. We love doing it and we love knowing that people are out there listening to our shit shows.

Hannah: 20:59

Thank you all.

Jess: 21:04

A sincere expression of gratitude to our esteemed patrons Lynn from Massachusetts, heather from New Jersey, courtney from Massachusetts and Chelsea from Utah for their generous monthly contributions. Their support fuels the engine of our investigative endeavors here at Wicked Wanderings.

Hannah: 21:22

You too can become a valued patron and unlock a realm of exclusive content by supporting our mission for as little as $3 a month. Your contribution sustains our commitment to delivering high quality content.

Jess: 21:33

Visit WickedWanderingsPodcastcom and click on the support tab to join the ranks of dedicated patrons like Lynn, heather, courtney and Chelsea. Your investment not only keeps our podcast thriving, but also ensures you are at the forefront of intriguing discoveries.

Hannah: 21:50

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Jess: 22:01

And now back to the shit show. So Nathan ended up getting found guilty. His trial started in 1996 and it took the jury three hours to convict him, and then during the sentencing they came back and gave him one death sentence for each person.

Hannah: 22:28

Wow.

Jess: 22:29

One death penalty sentence for each person. No for death penalty sentence.

Heather: 22:33

Death penalty sentence per person.

Jess: 22:36

And Nathan had been quiet throughout the whole trial and then he just lost it when that came down and he started yelling like to everybody F you, f, this, won't you just eff and kill me now. It was really crazy. And then they had to escort him out of the courtroom I mean understandably. So after he ended up on death row in Colorado and there was Some back and forth, he did appeal because with the death penalty, with capital punishment, that there is an automatic appeal, and during that time Colorado had executed another inmate on death row and the prison guards kind of gave Dunlap a hard time saying oh, you're next. And he ended up having a mental breakdown.

Jess: 23:30

So he, in 2006, was finally diagnosed with bipolar and he was put on lithium, which is a hefty medication.

Jess: 23:42

But he became a completely different person, and so during his appeals he claimed that he didn't get ineffective counsel because the defense did not mention his mental health. But also he claimed that the evidence that the prosecution did present were aggravating factors, and he nor his defense brought those up, and so I guess the prosecution is not allowed, or isn't supposed, to bring those up if the defense hasn't so as aggravating factors that would result in the death sentence. So there were a lot of appeals, obviously, and they sided with the court Because, regardless, if he had a different counsel, it wouldn't have changed the fact that he would have been sentenced to death, and if they had mentioned his mental health, it wouldn't have changed the fact that he was sentenced to death because of the crime that he committed. So, in 2009, colorado tried to pass a bill banning the death penalty I just found this out today which it wasn't what you think Like. When you think of people trying to ban the death penalty, what would you think?

Jess: 25:00

Like it's not ethical Right, but no, it was for a budget crisis.

Heather: 25:07

I told you, when you start talking the politics of this, I'm going to get mad.

Jess: 25:10

No, that's okay, that's what we want. So they figured that Nathan Dunlap's case, with all of his appeals, had cost the state $18 million.

Jess: 25:21

Wow, so that was in 2009, so 16 years after he committed those murders. And in 2012, the 10th Circuit Court rejected his final appeal and in 2013, the US Supreme Court refused to hear his case. But also I forgot to mention that the bill passed in the House but failed in the Senate by one vote in Colorado. So in 2009, it was not banned yet. So the US Supreme Court refused to hear his case. And he had one last final chance and that was to do a clemency appeal with a governor of Colorado.

Hannah: 26:08

Is that the phone call that can happen? I think so, or part of that right, because isn't it like they have still a certain time for the governor to call? And yeah, okay, yeah.

Jess: 26:19

So when, governor, who was it?

Rob: 26:21

Hick and.

Jess: 26:22

Looper.

Rob: 26:24

I was going to jump in real quick and just say that the clemency when you go to your governor governor has till. They actually pushed the button to call. But he was trying to do is contact the governor and say I'd like clemency, and then he has to review it and decide it to do it or not. But the call is a little different too, but it does involve the governor.

Jess: 26:46

So Dunlap was requesting his sentence to be commuted to life in prison. So that was what his clemency appeal was. He wasn't trying to say hey, I'm not guilty, it's hey, I don't want the death penalty. So, governor Hick and Looper and I don't know if you know, he did this, but he met with all the victims' families and most of them were adamant for the death penalty.

Heather: 27:10

Was his. Okay, this is the elephant in a room that I want to talk about. He's just asked me how I feel about the death penalty and I'm probably with the families, because Sylvia didn't get to choose life. Her life was taken from her, and so I've been like angry at him all this time that he gets to choose, but she didn't. So I'm sure that all these families that are hurting like I wish I could have her sister on here with us and some of our friends just to get their viewpoint.

Heather: 27:44

But that's always been my opinion since then and I haven't thought much about it. I always felt you're guilty, you did the crime. That's what we felt in the 90s, you know. We didn't think about mental health, but it was unfair for him to take away their choice to live. And also I can't remember, but I remember being angry that this was a part and I don't know if I'm correct or not. You can cut this if it's incorrect, but didn't this play a part in Hick and Looper's like trying to get re-election, re-election? That's what I'm so angry about. You're playing with this case, playing with the life, playing with the feelings of all the families, for your reelection.

Heather: 28:24

That's what I'm like politics.

Hannah: 28:26

Yeah, that's dirty.

Jess: 28:28

That's dirty, because that's what happened is. It was an election year for Hick and Looper, and so what happened is in May of 2013, he called the families to share his decision on what he made and he granted a temporary reprieve. So as long as Hick and Looper was governor, nathan would not be put to death, and the last time this was used was in the 1890s, so it had been almost 100 years since.

Heather: 29:01

Wow, I don't know what I'm saying if her parents were still alive at that time.

Jess: 29:05

Bob was because he was interviewed on.

Heather: 29:07

Death Row.

Jess: 29:08

Stories. So this left open the possibility for the next governor to change it, and so this is where it became a political game, and it became all for Nathan Dudlap, and so whoever they were voting for, so Hick and Looper didn't want him to die and eventually came out to be against the death penalty, and so his opponent was for the death penalty, and that's what they used for their it's so dumb.

Heather: 29:39

Like that was the focus, like why can't we focus on these beautiful lives that were lost instead of the crime?

Jess: 29:46

Yeah, but. And so this is where my internal conflict happens again, because I want to say that you know he should be cut a break because but he still committed these murders and I believe Colorado eventually got rid of the death penalty, and so Nathan is doing life without the possibility or life in prison.

Heather: 30:12

Which, honestly, is that not the worst? I mean you die, you die, but I mean living 30 years in prison. I would think that would be more torturing. I think it would be.

Jess: 30:24

Well, and what was interesting, Colleen O'Connor's mom was interviewed on death row stories and she was against the death penalty and told Hick and Looper you know, I'm glad I don't have to make that choice because I wouldn't be able to. But then she was interviewed at the end and she was like you know what? He's where he needs to be and let him rot he wasn't sorry.

Heather: 30:47

No, he was not. That's what makes you angry. He was not sorry for what he did, yeah.

Jess: 30:52

And that is one of the interviews that is done on death row stories. So if you guys want to know more about this case, it's on Discovery Plus or the ID Network. There's an episode on death row stories about Nathan Dunlap and he was interviewed and he's like no, I'm not affected by it, I didn't know them, I didn't. You know, I don't feel bad.

Heather: 31:15

Yeah, also, do you know that the manager he shot was not the one that fired him?

Jess: 31:21

Yes, I forgot to and-.

Heather: 31:23

Ah, so-. It was a man that fired him in the summer and this woman, margaret, had only worked there three weeks and, from what I remember, she had moved to Colorado to escape the violence in California, that's right, I remember you saying that oh that's terrible. So he just went and shot up the place. It really wasn't a vengeance. It didn't matter that he wasn't, he didn't kill the person who fired him.

Jess: 31:47

Yeah and when he went and got his sandwich, that's when he found out that that manager wasn't working. So I didn't leave. Yeah, exactly, Nathan leave. I mean, I don't think he listens to our podcast. I never know If you do, you're a douche canoe.

Heather: 32:04

Just say it I want my friend back.

Jess: 32:06

Yeah, I know, and so yeah, it's a very, very personal story. I remember when it happened. I remember, sylvia, how old were you? I was in middle school, so 93, I was 11 years old, and I remember getting out of class to call home to dad to ask if she died.

Heather: 32:28

Oh yeah, should I tell my story about that, of course. Okay, this is so. I was in Utah finals week getting ready to come home, and so I was coming home two days after she got shot, and so my dad called me and told me what happened, and it was just I couldn't believe it, and I was actually sitting at work that night and it came across the radio here in Utah.

Jess: 32:57

Was that?

Heather: 32:58

before.

Hannah: 32:59

I knew, I knew about it.

Heather: 33:00

So I knew that it was her and I just kept praying. I wanted her to hang on until I got home so I could say goodbye to her. But they took her off the life support the day before I came home. But I just remember my dad picking me up from Stapleton Airport that's how long ago, you know, probably a year and he had the Rocky Mountain News on the front seat and her picture was there on the front page. And that's when it really hit home that she was gone.

Jess: 33:35

I can't even imagine.

Hannah: 33:36

It's so difficult. We just we've been doing this for four months.

Rob: 33:41

This is episode 16.

Hannah: 33:43

Wow, episode 16. No, this is episode 17.

Rob: 33:46

I apologize, cause 15 just came out today and we have another one next week, that's 16. So this will be the new year just before the new years. So this is 17 and I will cut all this out.

Hannah: 34:02

We've been doing this, you know, for a little bit now, and the stories we've talked about. It's easy to Distance ourselves.

Jess: 34:09

Thank you.

Hannah: 34:09

Yeah, distance ourselves to tell their stories and be sad about it. But this one, you know, I know I didn't know her, but I know you right and so knowing you guys it makes it so real and chilling and so sad yeah yeah, and I've been researching it all week and I didn't feel anything about it until I started talking about it, cause I think it made it and especially with you being here.

Heather: 34:38

You're welcome.

Jess: 34:40

Yeah, but we kind of wanted to end this episode on something that my sister has and I feel like it is an amazing thing for her to have, and are you okay reading it?

Rob: 34:56

Yes.

Jess: 34:56

I love to. It is a poem that Sylvia wrote.

Heather: 35:00

Can I first tell about Sylvia?

Heather: 35:02

Yeah, please do, Please do. Sylvia was the kindest, happiest butterfly in a room. She, just like I, was just reading a picture. She gave me her junior year and she just said remember, I'll always be there for you, my bud even, or if you need me, even if you and when you don't, I'll still be there to bug you anyway. And that was there. She was just always there for everybody. She was just a joy and happiness, just a bundle of just fun to be around. And party girl Mormon, party girl, Mormon party girl. I remember her praying. Can I say this Of?

Jess: 35:43

course. I remember her praying in church. I have to say that I make fun of Mormons a lot on this podcast, but I also respect it and you are welcome to share whatever you want to share.

Heather: 35:56

Okay, I'll share what I share and if you don't want to, you can cut it. She I remember her praying in church at the end of a class and she would always ask for protection and safety if it be God's will and I always used to remember thinking at the time if you're praying for it, pray for it and want it, like, ask for it. You know, but she was just that kind of person. She's just like if it's your will, I'll go. You know.

Heather: 36:27

And even at the funeral I was up singing with the youth choir and I felt her as close as she was sitting right next to me and she was just this happy, happy soul and she didn't want me to be angry, she didn't want me to be stuck in that dark place and she was worried about her brother. And then I remember her just feeling like she was going to go comfort our friend who is speaking about her, and that was just such a great experience for me because it was as if she was sitting next to me. She is still the same person. She's still that beautiful light. So Love you, sylvia.

Jess: 37:15

Oh, my gosh wrapping by the heart.

Hannah: 37:19

I know I really just want to start crying right now.

Heather: 37:21

It's just yeah beautiful and I wish I knew more to share, more about Ben and Colleen and Margaret, but they were all wonderful people too. Anyway, this is a poem about forgiveness, a poem by Sylvia Crowell. In order to be a better person, a better you, you must think of Christ and think of others too. Though the things you may feel will be many. To leave this earth friendless, you don't have a penny. Think of all God's children, the trials we all go through. Though some may have many and others may have few.

Heather: 37:53

The way God loves me is just the way God loves you, and though I may not always know what I am doing, I may even stumble and fall. If I hang on till the end, I know I'll inherit all, for the end is not quite yet, our time is not quite right. Yet these feelings are so immense I feel that I must write and she underlines, must write and To all of our God's children, however near and far, I give a great big hug, no matter who you are, I'm trying to be Christlike and I have my faults too, but if we all love each other, all things will pull through. And there are many things yet. I still must learn. But I mustn't sit around in sorrow because, hey, there's always tomorrow. And that's the message she would want to send. I think honestly, she would see everyone in the situation as God's children and she would and he would give him.

Hannah: 38:45

He already gave him Yep who chills again, Geez right.

Jess: 38:52

This is definitely a different kind of episode than what we do, but I think I'm very honored, I guess, to tell this story and to talk about Sylvia and have Heather here and her family was the sweetest family.

Heather: 39:08

She had the sweetest parents and siblings, so we love them.

Jess: 39:16

Yeah, so I don't even know how to end this episode, but Well, I'm Heather.

Hannah: 39:24

That can't be, heather, I say thank you so much for talking about Sylvia and bringing alive her memory and being a part of this would really appreciate it. And, of course, jess, your story was awesome too.

Heather: 39:37

Thank you for having me.

Hannah: 39:40

You're welcome any time.

Jess: 39:42

Yes we love our guest visitors and now that we know how to zoom and do these long distance, we are gonna be in a haunted house. Yes, someday we will be in Lizzie Bourne's house overnight.

Hannah: 39:56

Love that. That'd be so fun. We might have to have John come too, so all four of us can do an episode together.

Heather: 40:01

Oh, that would be awesome. I will be Terrified, like I love shooting my houses, but I am drawn to the scary door in the basement. Yeah the cellar door. I'm always like John, I'm like a fly to the buzz light.

Rob: 40:16

Yeah, after like that door and see what's behind it.

Jess: 40:18

It's terrifying.

Heather: 40:19

I have that kind of adrenaline.

Jess: 40:21

So Hannah and I are the same way, so we could totally get that Andrew's room and it has that room off to the side.

Heather: 40:32

So you and Jonathan can be in one part and Heather, don't leave me alone, I will go. No, I don't want to sleep by myself and no, I want to be there.

Jess: 40:41

It's a big room and it has a room off to the side Perfect. So I'll be in this. Well, I'll be with you and I will be with Jonathan, and then we probably won't sleep at all at night.

Hannah: 40:52

Yeah, heather, so I'm assuming you haven't been to Lizzie Bourne's house yet.

Heather: 40:56

I have never been no okay.

Hannah: 40:57

I'm curious if she, if you'd feel anything, because I know in our past episodes me and Jess and John I'll talk like no, we didn't, we didn't feel anything. So I'd be curious.

Heather: 41:06

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I listened to the episode where after you guys went, and that was really interesting.

Rob: 41:13

So it'll be fun.

Heather: 41:14

It'll be fun to go and see let's do it, let's do it, let's do it.

Jess: 41:19

Well, thank you, wanderers, for joining us yet again on our very special episode with a very special story and our first long distance. And happy new year. Let's rock, say 24, our wicked wanderings. New year's resolution, if I could talk, would be to get listeners in every 50, every all 50 seats.

Heather: 41:43

How many do you have now?

Jess: 41:44

We just got Tennessee, and so I think we're at 43 now.

Heather: 41:48

That's so close? We can do it. We can do it.

Hannah: 41:51

We can totally do it.

Heather: 41:52

Yeah, share it with your friends, guys.

Jess: 41:54

Yes, like subscribe.

Heather: 41:56

Wait, can I share? Can I say it?

Jess: 41:58

Say what, okay, no, you got to say go. That's right, all right. Well, everyone out there, keep on wandering and Love y'all Happy new year.

Hannah: 42:15

Happy new year.

Rob: 42:16

Happy new year. Happy new year.

Hannah: 42:18

Thanks for listening today. The show wouldn't be possible without our amazing producer and editor, rob Fitzpatrick, who works tirelessly behind the scenes to bring you the best content.

Jess: 42:27

And a special thanks to Tyga sound prod for providing the captivating intro music. Cinematic intro 24.

Hannah: 42:34

And of course, we can't forget the hauntingly beautiful outro music, rhino's theme, composed by kevin mcloud.

Jess: 42:40

If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to leave a rating and review on our your favorite podcast platforms Like Spotify, apple and YouTube. Your feedback means the world to us.

Hannah: 42:51

Also be sure to follow us on instagram for behind the scenes blimpses, updates and more thrilling content. You can find us at wicked wanderings podcast.

Jess: 43:00

Thank you so much for listening and being part of our wicked wanderings community.

Hannah: 43:04

We appreciate each and every one of you Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering. You, you, you you.