Hannah: 0:00

Oh, one book I do want to read is another one by Braum, who did sluva, he did Krampus. Oh, I want to read it.

Rob: 0:07

Who's braun?

Hannah: 0:07

braum.

Rob: 0:08

Braum. He's an author.

Jess: 0:10

He's cool, he can go by his last name.

Rob: 0:12

Is that a villain in Batman?

Jess: 0:13

Kind of sounds like it.

Hannah: 0:17

Okay, hello, wanderers. I'm Hannah and I'm Jess, and this is Wicked Wanderings. Happy New Year, wanderers.

Jess: 0:29

Woohoo, a Cheers to 2024.

Hannah: 0:33

I'm hoping that it's a good one, and a healthy one and accomplished one for all of you, everybody, yes, and that you keep listening to Wicked Wanderings, because we're amazing, we're hoping some things are coming to fruition.

Jess: 0:47

Hint, hint this year yes, keeping my fingers and legs crossed.

Hannah: 0:52

You should keep your legs crossed, you, little slut. This will be the last episode for mental health for now. Okay, I wanted to highlight what life was like during the earlier times for individuals getting serviced and to show how far we have come, but also how far we still need to go. Yes, as Nelly Bly showed us, much progress needs to be made, but we need to learn from our past in order to approach our future. So trigger warning for this episode, because we go to you, we go deep and there's a lot of that's what she said.

Rob: 1:25

There's a lot of gruesome things.

Hannah: 1:27

The 1930s were influenced by eugenics and how mental health professionals treated patients. This was an era for procedures like insulin, coma, metrozol, convulsive therapy, electroshock and prefrontal lumbotomy. Oh my God. Methods were upgraded so that water therapy would look more appealing, but patients would be lowered into bass of either scalding hot water or ice cold water, and they would not be able to move for sometimes months.

Jess: 1:52

Why? Because they're dicks. Well, I'm just wondering, like oh, I wonder what they'll do, like how they'll react to scalding hot water Bitch they'll get burned.

Hannah: 2:03

Yeah, they'll get burned, but it's like the reasoning the doctors were giving was like, oh, we'll take their mind off of what's going on in their heads, like well, yeah, like anybody, but that's trauma kinds of. More Exactly, they also used a jet shower where the pressure of the water was increased up to 40 pounds and as cold as 50 degrees, which all I can think of is like when firefighters use water and how high of a pressure that is. Yeah, a doctor said they met resistance by patients with this one. No shit, gynecologists were moving uteruses and ovaries as a way to cure women patients. If a woman was said to masturbate too much, the clitoris would be removed.

Jess: 2:41

But that's why God put it there for women's pleasure. She should get pleasure from it.

Hannah: 2:45

This is some handmade like shit, like was it. That's what I'm thinking of.

Rob: 2:50

Handmaid's tail.

Hannah: 2:50

Handmaid's tail Thank you.

Jess: 2:52

Oh, I watched the first season, but I can't stand her face.

Rob: 2:56

Seriously.

Jess: 2:56

Yeah, it's her face. I can't, I can't watch it.

Hannah: 2:58

I know she's like stuck with her. She's kind of like the girl from Twilight, like one expression.

Jess: 3:03

Yeah, exactly, but I still love Twilight. Her facial expressions are just flat.

Rob: 3:08

You should really get back into it and watch the whole thing, because it's really good as you get into the seasons.

Hannah: 3:14

The thing is that drives me nuts about this. When they're talking about taking this away from women because they use it too much, why us, like women, are allowed to experience pleasure too, like you said? That's why God put it there.

Jess: 3:27

It's the only organ that is designed specifically for pleasure, exactly. So. I don't even know if it's an organ, but part of my body, exactly.

Hannah: 3:37

Unlike the Asylum's in the 1800s, where discharge rates were high, the 1930s were seeing less and less discharged patients. It seems that, instead of approaching these people with kindness and understanding, these so-called doctors were looking for a quick fix through mutilating the bodies.

Jess: 3:51

Okay question when women get like hysterectomies they have to go on like medication to control their hormones. So when you remove the uterus it does not fix that problem. Sometimes it makes it worse. Yep.

Hannah: 4:05

And I didn't read anything about them trying to regulate that at all. I probably didn't. They didn't know the insulin coma that became popular was doctors injecting patients with insulin that would cause a fit and then it would be in a coma for up to two hours.

Jess: 4:17

Okay, Apparently there is this case that I watched on some crime show where this woman killed her husband with an insulin overdose. And if you give them insulin and like they sit and fester for like two or three days, they can't tell what their cause of death was Interesting. So these people could have killed people. Anyway, just in case I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, Rob, don't look at me that way but crazy because they could have OD these clients.

Hannah: 4:51

Yeah absolutely Absolutely.

Jess: 4:54

Oh oops, they died. I wonder how.

Hannah: 4:56

So, after the two hours or they're about, they would then give them a glucose mixture that would help them wake. So, because these patients were not in need of insulin right, it damaged the brain, causing them to be childlike and subdued. Oh my God, the effects would not last forever, and so the procedure be readministered until the effects were prolonged.

Jess: 5:14

Why.

Hannah: 5:15

Why so a lot of these procedures that I'm going to talk about? They made them childlike to the point where they were able to be managed, and that's what these people want. Like, oh, they're fixed. Like, look at them because, like you, can control them.

Hannah: 5:28

Yep.

Hannah: 5:28

It became less havoc for the nurses or the aides to have to deal with at night or even during the day. It's it's sickening. Metrizol convulsive therapy was cheaper than the insulin coma and did not require as many staff members. The convulsions caused by the injections could cause breakage of bones and spine because they were so violent. The patients will come to be childlike again and engaging in odd behavior. This treatment would have to be readministered, like the insulin comb therapy, but patients were scared of it and fighting to do it again. Obviously, the doctors were using fear as a way for the patients to behave.

Hannah: 6:02

The book Madden America by Robert Whitaker, which I do recommend because it's very informative, tells a story of a 17 year old girl in 1959 who was put into asylum by her parents because she ran off with a 22 year old who she called her boyfriend. Her parents were also upset because they believe a previous boyfriend was gay. Like who cares, right, but this is also the fifties, not as progressive, obviously. Because of these incidents, they put her in for electric cars. They put her in for electric shock therapy. After several attempts, the doctors were not happy with the results. So what do they do? They kept going. They raised it. So they kept going with the treatment until the girl walked around naked, soiled herself and had no recollection of who the boyfriend was. Is this really how you wanted your daughter to be Like? Now she has no idea who. This boyfriend is right who, what, they, which is what they wanted. But now she's. She came to the bathroom by herself.

Jess: 7:00

Yeah, she's shit in her pants, like you call this progress. Sorry, but I'd rather have my daughter run off with a 22 year old right actually not even run off like welcome to the family right, scare him off with commitment Just kidding anyway.

Hannah: 7:15

Electroshock therapy was also being used on a group of children ages 4 to 11. This group of children were given two shocks a day over 20 days. The outcomes were not all great, causing one child to go after the doctors and one trying to commit suicide. Patients were given this treatment without their consent and they gave consent. It was usually because the doctors told them it would not hurt. Of course, patients were choked until they passed out, strapped down and when they came to the procedure, began.

Jess: 7:40

I mean, who doesn't like to be choked and strapped down?

Hannah: 7:45

Jess, that's another episode, I'm just this is your fault.

Jess: 7:56

Anyway, seriousness, sorry, I apologize to our wonders out there.

Hannah: 8:02

The doctors thought it was better. They were not allowed to know what would happen so as not to scare them. It was also admitted that doctors used it as punishment, not as a cure. Doctors would use it as mental spanking for women or saying they would up the dose for those patients they did not like.

Jess: 8:16

I would misbehave, just to be spanked.

Hannah: 8:27

Let's talk about Jess's favorite part right now, though. Oh, what is it? Frontal Lombomies. Lombomies were not new to the 20th century, but as early as the 12th century, physicians would cut holes into people's heads, hoping the demons would leave their bodies so they would be better, oh my god. So, jess, do you know about Phineas gauge? Yes, I do so, for all those wonders that don't know about him. Phineas was a railroad worker that had a spike go through his cheek and out through his brain, causing damage to his frontal lobe. He has mentioned Whitaker's book because he was such a phenomenon, but also because he was science showing that damage that part of the brain causes a change to mood.

Jess: 9:08

Yeah, and he survived it.

Hannah: 9:10

He won yeah seven extra years, I think it was. The published research was showing such high success rates, but were these accurate? After having the procedure, families were told what to expect, and it was not pleasant. You would expect the patient not to leave their bed, not even to go to the bathroom. Make sure they are turned so they do not get bed sores. They will grunt in response to questions. If they do get to the bathroom, it would take up to an hour for them to finish because they just sit there. Bathing will need to be assisted because they will play with the water and not actually wash. You will have to reteach manners, because I steal food from other people's plates and insulting them would only cause them to smile.

Hannah: 9:48

Some are able to have a job, but it must be something at a simple level. Doing chores and housekeeping will be too difficult because they cannot multitask. Sex drive will also be changed. How so? Oh well, let me tell you Sex was another waterloo. The lobotomized male, freeman and Watts explained, might begin to paw his wife at Inconvenient times and under circumstances when she may be embarrassed, and sometimes it develops into a ticklish situation. His lovemaking was also apt to be at a somewhat immature level and that the patient seeks sexual gratification without particularly thinking out a plan of procedure.

Jess: 11:53

I think my husband's had a frontal lobotomy.

Hannah: 12:01

It was up to the woman to learn to enjoy such deficiencies. Of course, right Refusal of sex has led to one savage beating that we know of and several separations. Physical self-defense is probably the best tactic for the woman. Her husband may have regressed to the caveman level and she owes it to him to be responsive at the cavewoman level. It may not be agreeable at first, but she will soon find it exhilarating if unconventional. So, ladies, if your husband has had a frontal lobotomy, it is your job to still make him have pleasure.

Jess: 12:36

Of course, don't mind your pleasure, but Well, if they cut off her clitoris, then what does she got? It's seriously right.

Hannah: 12:46

The research articles were not accurately depicting the results. Lombotomy was causing more harm than good. No shit, lombotomy was not surgery of the soul. This was surgery that removed the soul. As one critic said, lobotomy was a partial euthanasia, but the trial results published in the medical journals never captured the sense of profound loss. The journal articles conveyed a different reality, telling in general of an operation that could transform hopelessly lost patients on backwards into happy people, some of whom were working and leading fulfilling social lives. The question that arises today is what drove the creation of that different reality? Why did those who perform the surgery in the late 1930s and early 1940s see their patients outcomes through such a rosy lens? For that is clearly what they saw. They perceived this surgery as one that could offer great benefits to the mentally ill.

Jess: 13:34

But how right, especially for their families. They have to take even more care of them exactly exactly my point.

Hannah: 13:42

The Rockefellers. Here we go again with. The Rockefellers were donating millions of dollars to make sure Psychiatry is being pushed into the future, and so the doctors were feeling the pressure to keep the money flowing. Lombotomies were also a way for the state hospitals to save money in the long run. They calculated how many patients would make good candidates. Then they calculated the percentage of how many be able to go home and how many would die from the procedure. With that calculation came the money that the hospitals was saving the long run, which is sickening so it's a business, it's money, it's all about money, like everything else exactly Walter Freeman?

Hannah: 14:17

Do you know about Walter Freeman? No, okay, laura, with Aaron mankey. Love you, aaron Mankey. He does an episode on Walter Freeman and I've been fascinated since. So Walter Freeman then began. Transorbital Lombon means where he would enter through the patient's eye sockets and not have to open the brain. So Freeman performed his first transorbital lumbotomy in 1946. Patients would be given a series of shocks to put them out and then freeman enter an ice pick into their eye socket, insert about seven centimeters down and pull it out to scramble the brain. The procedure would take about 20 minutes and the patients would be done in a couple hours. The family was told to bring sunglasses for the patient to cover their black eyes and with that we're gonna take a nice break. Think about those transorbital lumbotomies, people. Oh.

Jess: 15:12

A sincere expression of gratitude to our esteemed patrons Lynn from Massachusetts, heather from New Jersey, courtney from Massachusetts, amber from Idaho and Chelsea from Utah For their generous monthly contributions. Their support fuels the engine of our investigative endeavors here at Wicked Wonderings.

Hannah: 15:30

You too can become a valued patron and unlock a realm of exclusive content by supporting our mission for as little as $3 a month. Your contribution sustains our commitment to delivering high quality content.

Jess: 15:41

Visit WickedWonderingsPodcastcom and click on the support tab to join the ranks of dedicated patrons like Lynn, Heather, Amber, Courtney and Chelsea. Your investment not only keeps our podcast thriving, but also ensures you are at the forefront of intriguing discoveries.

Hannah: 15:58

Thank, you for considering this opportunity to deepen your engagement with Wicked Wonderings. Your support is paramount in enabling us to continue our journey into the realms of mystery and true crime. And now back to the show. You have Amazon right. Yes, Amazon Prime. Have you watched?

Jess: 16:22

lore? No, I should, because I love Aaron Minky.

Hannah: 16:26

So do the Walter Freeman episode. It's so good.

Rob: 16:31

And after you watch that, I highly recommend the Robert episode.

Hannah: 16:35

Oh, my gosh Robert the Doll. I love Robert the Doll. It's creepy.

Rob: 16:41

It's so creepy. I would love to go and see Robert the.

Hannah: 16:46

Doll From a distance. It's what California right. It's behind a glass case, yes, but you can't take a picture of him, right, because people that take a picture of him end up like having weird shit happen to them.

Jess: 16:58

Nope, I will look at it through binoculars.

Hannah: 17:05

Freeman took a show on the road and started visiting Asylum's where he would review records and choose his victims. By the way, just letting you wanderers know, if you watch Aaron Minky's lore on Amazon Prime, he has an episode about Walter Freeman and his fabulous. You're welcome, aaron Minky, love you, mujo. Okay, he would charge as little as $25 a patient and he was completing procedures as fast as 10 minutes. To go faster, he would insert an ice pick in each eye and pull up at the same time, scrambling both parts of the brain. He would teach the doctors and psychiatrists of Asylum how to do this procedure. The scary part was when I was reading Mad America by Robert Whitaker is that it sounds like he wasn't just teaching the people that had degrees, he was teaching staff to do this procedure and it was very scary, oh yeah.

Jess: 17:58

So this sounds vaguely familiar.

Hannah: 18:01

But Walter Freeman. Very fascinating. I'm fascinated by Walter Freeman.

Hannah: 18:06

Following World War II, pharmaceutical drugs were beginning to arrive. Pharmaceutical companies would begin popping up and this became a new way for the Asylum to deal with patients. The pharmaceutical companies did not have to prove to the FDA that the drug worked, just that it was not toxic to take. And with patent laws, competition was removed and prices would soar. I mean, that to me just sounds normal that pricing of pharmaceuticals would soar, hmm, hmm, it hasn't changed.

Hannah: 18:36

Nope, having patients become in childlike, let them receive better care due to staffing liking the demeanor. They would show more kindness and compassion when tranquil. Before certain laws, drugs could be picked up over the counter. It was not necessary for you to go to the doctor to get a prescription. Pharmaceutical advertisement were less than honest and not telling you straight what the drug would do, because you know we have these annoying commercials now. That's like, by the way, and they list off like all the. Yeah, they didn't have to do that. Pharmaceutics wanted to get chlorpromazine. Chlorpromazine Sure, okay, cool, was seen like a drug lobotomy, but they won't say that to the public and said it is a drug to calm your nerves and let you see life through new eyes.

Hannah: 19:25

During the mid 20th century this was a turning point for mental health, but was it? The wants of the mentally ill were still not being heard. All society saw and wanted was a way to take the strain off the system quickly, so these people could be added back to society with little to no effort.

Hannah: 19:42

The author of Madden America does focus often on schizophrenia, and while discussing the drug market he wrote something interesting about how the public perceives schizophrenia. The image we have today of schizophrenia is not that of madness, whatever that might be in its natural state. All the traits that we have come to associate with schizophrenia the awkward gate, the jerking arm movements, the vacant facial expression, the sleepiness, the lack of initiative are symptoms due, at least in large part, to a drug induced deficiency and dopamine transmission. Even behavior that seems contrary to that slothful image, such as the agitated pacing seen in some people with schizophrenia, often arises from neuroleptics. Our perceptions of how those ill with schizophrenia think, behave and look are all perceptions of people altered by medication and not by any natural course of a disease. I thought that was interesting, because when you think schizophrenic, those symptoms that he mentioned, that's what you think of, but come to find out. It's really just the drugs causing it.

Jess: 20:45

Well, I was just thinking. When I think of schizophrenia, I think of beautiful mind and voices and hallucinations. I've never seen beautiful mind.

Hannah: 20:54

What? Yes, I've not seen the beautiful mind. It's interesting In the paranoia. I'm not trying to make fun of German people. I don't know where that came from.

Hannah: 21:03

I just said what I know what I took it off. Schizophrenia was a diagnosis to hand out. To prove in competency. A psychology professor, david Rosenhaan, and seven others went to different asylums claiming to hear voices but acted normal otherwise. All were admitted for their symptoms and all but one were diagnosed with schizophrenia. The patients were the ones that picked up on the charades saying they were professors because they were writing things down. Rosenhaan then ran this experiment in reverse. He told a hospital that he would send a fake patient into the facility in the next 90 days. Out of a hundred and ninety-three admitted, forty-three were accused of being Rosenhaan's patient. But guess what? He didn't send anybody. Rosenhaan never sent one. I knew it. This all proved that diagnosing was hogwash.

Jess: 21:48

So to pause for just a second yeah, absolutely. I'd imagine things happen like that more often than we realize now, Like the misdiagnosing, the sticking with a specific symptom and like multiple diagnoses Like we were talking about it in class where people who have substance use also get diagnosed as bipolar because they show in the moment of crisis you know the highs and the lows when it's actually withdrawals from the substance, and then they have that diagnosis on them in their file and it's like whatever the therapist is thinking that day, sometimes like unqualified and yeah.

Hannah: 22:37

I don't really talk about it, but in the last part of this book there's a lot of talk about schizophrenia, because that's what Whitaker really wants to focus on schizophrenia. I feel like he has a strong tie to schizophrenia. But what I find very interesting is that when you think of medications being given out to people, you're like, oh, they have a low dopamine level or they're oh, they're. This brainwave isn't high enough. He's saying, the research isn't good enough to prove that. And so we're handing out these pills left and right and we're not sure what it's doing, which is really scary because, as someone that has approached their doctor about mental health, it is still a terrifying thing to do because it's so taboo still for our society we have not normalized this at all and it's scary. It's really scary. So we're putting these drugs into our bodies and then we're finding out the science isn't exactly behind it, as it should be.

Jess: 23:39

So the science now is what he's saying currently.

Hannah: 23:42

Correct as from 1990 on.

Jess: 23:46

Oh, interesting. And you also wonder, or at least I wonder, like do doctors get payouts for specific drugs? I know with my own experience. I have had a great experience getting help from the VA. I cannot complain. I know a lot of veterans don't, but I had. Actually I'm on anxiety meds, you know PTSD and all that kind of fun stuff.

Jess: 24:11

And I told the person that I don't feel like it was working, and so they were gonna, instead of switching to something else, they were gonna add another thing on top of it, and I'm like no, no, I'm good, and so a lot of that. And you see, kids I'm sure you've seen it and you're come in with a cocktail of medications, which is super sad.

Hannah: 24:34

Right, and then they have to put these kids into a hospital If they want to, like, all right. We need to figure out what is causing this one thing and they literally have to drain the child from all these medications, right, and cause these kids get PRNs, and it's really scary, you know. I'll be honest too, as someone that is on an anti-anxiety, anti-depression medication, after reading this it's actually really scary, cause, while I think the medication has helped me, it's scary, right, it's the unknown of what it's actually doing to your body. So, but you can kind of understand why parents are so hesitant to medicaid their child. I think there is so much that we don't know about mental health and how things work, so I'm gonna actually get into a story of a woman that was kind of put into a trial without actually knowing about it. So I'll get to some of that.

Hannah: 25:26

Mental health is still taboo. We need to make it non-taboo, because I know it's still taboo because when talking to my doctor, I was afraid he was not going to believe me and in my doctor's defense, he did believe me, right, it's good he did. He asked me some questions, which he should, but it was still nerve wracking because it's something that you cannot see right. It's not like I have a broken leg. Yeah, I can see from your X-ray you have a broken leg, but it's something that's mental. So I don't think anyone has a perfect brain. I just don't think that exists.

Jess: 25:58

What? Okay, I think your brain is perfect.

Hannah: 26:03

Oh shucks, honey, I think yours is perfect, thanks. The author also points out that the high diagnosis rate for poor and African-American people. So, once slavery was abolished, african-americans then had to worry about being put into a sane asylums which I did not know about. White people would say that black people did not know how to be free. It was not good for them because of violence and cannibalistic ancestry they came from, which was bullshit. Slavery was good for them, they said, and they were better off. These poor people were finally free and now had to worry about another form of capture by the medical system. I wrote on the page of the book. I wrote a bunch of douche canoes. It was literally. I was like you've got to be kidding me. These people are finally free and now they're being shoved into asylums. I know it's oh my God, but you know what? If we do not know about our history, we cannot learn from our history, right Good point? So I hope we're learning.

Hannah: 27:02

Shoving drugs at people to fix the problem was becoming the problem. Doctors were proclaiming victory while patients wanted to climb out of their skin. Suicide was becoming prevalent. A 36-year-old Hispanic male went to the hospital because he could not sleep and was overly nervous. He was given an injection of flu-fenazine Sure, anyone in the medical field. If you want to fix our pronunciation, let me know but it was to treat schizophrenia and other psychosis symptoms and he was sent away. Over the course of several weeks he would return to the hospital agitated and begging for help. He was in so much misery but nothing fixed it. So he jumped in front of his upway train.

Jess: 27:42

Did the medication make it worse? Yeah, you know, when people have problems sleeping, I think like Ambien or Tylenol PM. Let's just go straight to the schizophrenic medication.

Hannah: 27:56

It was hard to read some of these stories, which was absolutely awful. A few case reports linked Acathesia which, by the way, is a state of agitation, distress, side effects of antipsychotic drugs to bizarre murders. One 39-year-old white man, after a hallow parietal injection, made him feel like he was falling apart, that all the bones in his body were broken, Bludgeoned his mother with a hammer and act he later found incomprehensible. So he does it. And then he's like oh my gosh, can't believe I did that right. Another 35-year-old man asked why he had stabbed a grocer he had known for some time, said he did it to get the drug and juice pain out of his head. The only reason I knifed the guy was how doll messed me up. Proloxin makes me want to kill too.

Hannah: 28:41

The murderous explosion of a 23-year-old male detailed in the journal a forensic psychiatry was perhaps the most chilling example of all. After his wife left him, he became distraught and was brought to an emergency room by the police. He had briefly hospitalized a number of times before and he warned the staff that he reacted badly to hallow parietal. In spite of his protest, he was injected with the drug and he quickly exploded in rage. He ran from the emergency room, tore off his clothes in nearby park and started attacking everyone he saw. Over the course of 45 minutes he tried to rape a woman walking in the park, broke into a house and be an 81-year-old woman to a pulp, fought with a policeman and then escaped, stabbed two more women and was then at last subdued by a gang of eight cops Holy shit, In 45 minutes. And he told the people that he could not take this certain medication.

Jess: 29:31

Wow, I mean, I didn't think it would be that extreme. Holy shit, that's crazy.

Hannah: 29:39

And there is another part here that several high-profile murders in recent years have been committed by people in this drug withdrawal state. Most recently, newsweek reported that Andrea Yates, the Houston mother who killed her five children you know this case, yes Did so after she was taken off the powerful antipsychotic drug Haldol. However, such instances of violent murders are inevitably reported as examples of why the mentally ill needs be kept on medications, rather than as examples of the peril of using the drugs in the first place. The blame is put on the patients and their disease rather than on the medications.

Jess: 30:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd imagine with antipsychotics it's similar to SSRIs that you have to wean off of them and you can't just go cold. Turkey, right, but I have not been to medical school and so don't quote me on that, but I'd imagine it would be similar, especially when there's stuff that goes on like that, right.

Hannah: 30:35

Right, exactly Some points of this. What it makes is that there were a lot of studies in the back of this book I didn't completely understand, especially so I am in the medical field, right, but the research that I read is so different than some like understanding these medications. But I will say that a lot of the stuff that he was talking about was more how patients that were shown kindness and compassion and their illness was dealt with in that way instead of just shoving a medication at them, was better in the long run. I mean obvious, like he refers back to.

Hannah: 31:14

I know in the first episode of this series that I did talked about the Quakers and how they approach these people as, like these, are my brothers right, that need help, they need extra kindness, and so I don't. I forgot if I talk about it or not in this episode, but there was this house that was developed in the seventies in California, where these people that were mentally ill were able to go and just be themselves. So if they needed to break everything in the room, they allowed it, they met them where they were and there was high success rates. But the drug companies just didn't want to see it Well, and that's the basis of trauma informed care.

Jess: 31:54

Right, If you look at it simply, Right Is to meet them where they're at. And I mean I could go off on this for a while.

Hannah: 32:02

No, I know because it's very near and dear to our heart and I think that's what makes Wicked Wandering special in this aspect is because that we're both in mental health care and we see this every day at work. Yeah, and how trauma informed care and trauma assumed care are so important for the people that we work with, because I think it's so easy for these doctors on their high back to be able to get a doctor's on their high pedosal not everyone, but on their high pedosal that can be like okay, these are the symptoms, this is the medication I give, without looking at the person as a whole picture.

Jess: 32:38

Yeah, they just check off the boxes or, you know, put them in the same category when people aren't the same.

Hannah: 32:46

Exactly.

Rob: 32:47

Regardless of diagnosis or experiences.

Hannah: 32:51

FDA laws were different in the sixties, so drug companies did not have to write out all symptoms of a drug. Have you ever seen the movie the Yaga Sisterhood? It's been a while, okay, so, by the way, it's one of my favorite movies. While the Yaga Sisterhood there's this one part of the movie that popped into my head while I was reading this book. The main woman in the story, who was played by Sandra Bullock, is remembering how awful her childhood was, and it flashes back to when she was maybe seven or eight, and she's protecting her siblings from their mother who was being them with a belt. Does this ring a bell at all?

Jess: 33:24

Getting beat with a belt? Yeah, no, I got the wooden spoon. I'm just kidding Continue.

Hannah: 33:31

So the other part of the story that she does not know as a seven or eight year old is that a doctor had prescribed the mother a drug that should not have been prescribed and it caused her to be delusional and violent. So when you watch the movie, obviously as a seven or eight year old you don't see this, but like her friends and her husband are around her and they're looking at the medication and they're basically saying this doctor should not be in business, he should not be giving him this medication. Because, by the way, this woman I don't know if you remember, but you know she lost her, her one true love, to the war and then she married this man that does love her, but then I think she has imposed part of depression and this doctor is just prescribing her this drug because it probably fit whatever symptoms she was having, but it was also causing her to be psychotic in her children, which wasn't what she wanted to begin with. So I think it was like a perfect example of what was going on in the sixties and seventies with that. So in the sixties doctors were fighting the patients, spitting the pills out and not taking them as they should, which I don't blame them. They believe that the patients did not have rights. So how can a person deemed insane have the mind to decide what is best for them? In this case, the state becomes the guardian and they lose all rights because of this act of defiance. Drug companies made an injectable medicine and a liquid that could be spilled into their food. It was said that once this starts to happen, patients will be more subdued and willing to take their medication. Patients started having their voice heard and protests started popping up, though Cases were going to court and being heard by judges. The war was between the patients, the pharmaceutical companies and those that prescribed the medication.

Hannah: 35:06

The author made a point that stuck with me. Over the course of the sixties to the eighties, 400,000 beds were freed up in insane asylums. Without looking at how history was changing, you could say this was because of anti psychotics, but that's not the case. So during these years, medicare and Medicaid came to be, as well as social security benefits for the disabled. So it wasn't because of meds, but it was because of all these programs that started to come into place.

Hannah: 35:33

America likes to see herself as the country that is progressive and does nothing wrong. That sets the example for other countries, but it's not entirely true. While the Nazi physicians that experimented on the Jewish people to further help their side of the war, american physicians were experimenting to further science and patients and asylums. While the American sentence these Nazi physicians to death because of their inhumane acts, american scientists were not doing any better. So I thought that was an interesting point that would occur made was we were putting these physicians that were doing bodily experiments on these people, which is totally wrong, but the physicians here in America, I feel like, weren't doing any better.

Jess: 36:14

Yeah, and that shit still goes on in the military. Really, yeah, they try new things with us. I remember my husband telling me that for penicillin they had a mixture to put in their drink when he went through basic. When I went through, which wasn't long after I got a shot in the ass for the penicillin yeah, I am so sorry.

Jess: 36:38

Yeah, I've been poked so many times. That's awful. Yeah, the worst shot I've ever had was the damn COVID, but before that that was anthrax. Anyway, just thought you'd like to know. Anthrax shot yeah, I've had the anthrax shot to go overseas and it burns your arm like your whole arm, but it doesn't last like five days like the COVID shot did Shit. Yeah, jeez, I'm so sorry it made me stronger.

Hannah: 37:07

Well, thank you for the sacrifice to your country. Like oh my God, experiments were being done on patients without consent. Shalma Prince was a woman doing well for herself, attending school and then going to live in New York City, but in 1981 suffered from manic episode of bipolar. Her doctor put her on lithium and she did well until two years later she felt manic and not quite right so she went to the hospital because she did not want to relapse. She was approached by a doctor that told her there was a medical trial occurring that could help her if she would just sign the release. The release was basic, with her name and that she was willingly entering the trial to better her health. Prince did the cause of doctors so decided it was better to sign it, because why would a man in a white coat steer her wrong? The purpose of the experiment was to take her off her lithium for at least a week and then at the end, would be given a dopamine releasing agent. She went through withdrawals which caused her to be manic and not sleep and worse. The dopamine aging was given and it caused her to be worse, where she was strapped to a chair for days where her family could come and gawk at her. She was eventually released with a $15,000 bill for services rendered and having to relearn her life again. It was not until 1994 where she read an article that brought her back to that time where unsuspecting Americans were being experimented on. She brought her case before a judge where he denied her case and said she should have thought of this earlier, before the statute of limitation ran out. The defense attorney said she should think of where her life would have been without the experiment and be grateful. Bunch of fricking douches. The experiments were causing more harm than good.

Hannah: 38:38

In the 90s, trials were performed for research, but what the research left out was the people that died from the experiments. Suicide was one driving factor of death. In order to get a baseline of these individuals in the study, they have to withdraw their current medications. But they did not slow withdraw, they just took them away, and that was that. It was faster that way you understand Right Sarcasm. Due to this, people rather have chosen hanging, jumping or shooting a gun into their brain due to strain in their brains and bodies. We have probably all heard the term drug pushers, and so has this become the new lobotomy or new electric shock therapy, where drugs are causing more harm than good. The question I have to end this is the following what constitutes mad? That's my question to everyone. What constitutes mad? Because after reading this book and working with the population, I do what really constitutes mad. Not that you really have to answer, it can be just something you think about, but that's my question.

Jess: 39:39

Based on those old determinations, like all of us, are considered mad Right.

Hannah: 39:45

Exactly, I think that mental health is a thing Don't get me wrong but I think that we really have to look at the people through history that would have been considered mad. Think about the musicians and the composers that we have through history. Because of quote unquote, they were mad or artists. I think of Van Gogh, I think of Beethoven, I think of all these people that had something to add to our society. They weren't necessarily quote unquote normal, but they added something.

Jess: 40:18

And they were different. Right and, as history shows, people who are different from what is considered normal aren't treated very well.

Hannah: 40:27

Right. Fucking potnobs. Fucking potnobs Probably related to the damn potnobs Cocaine.

Jess: 40:35

Cocaine. We need to make some hoodies.

Hannah: 40:39

We really do. If anyone wants a hoodie, can you tell us Cause? Uh?

Jess: 40:45

We have ideas.

Rob: 40:46

We do have ideas.

Hannah: 40:49

I don't know if we should write cocaine on the back of a hoodie.

Jess: 40:51

No, it needs to say cocaine like really big, and then underneath say it's not a said it is, and then Jess.

Hannah: 41:03

Anyways, thank you, wanderers, for listening to my Nonsense.

Jess: 41:07

Thanks, that was an awesome episode.

Hannah: 41:09

If you guys have any suggestions for this new year, please email us at wikidwanderingspodcastcom. We would love to hear from you, or comment on our Instagram account, wikidwanderingspodcast. We would just love to hear from you. I'm thinking also that me and Jess are going to start our TikTok. Yes, so as soon as we know what our handle is going to be, is it a handle for TikTok? I don't know.

Jess: 41:34

I think so. We will let you know. Tiktok makes me feel old because I don't know how to do the videos.

Hannah: 41:40

Dude. Seriously, I did not know what the word. Oh my God, what was the word Dup? What is that? What's? Dup, that's what I said. So I was talking to someone at work and they're like yeah, the kid was mad because they called it a dup. What the fuck is a dup? It just means it's not the real thing. So if you don't have a Stanley cup, it's a real Stanley, it's a dup, so it's fake. It's fake Exactly. Why can't you just say fake, I don't know I don't know.

Rob: 42:06

Don't forget to follow us on threads and Twitter. That's right, slash X.

Jess: 42:11

We're on Twitter, yeah, rob.

Rob: 42:14

Yeah.

Jess: 42:14

You manage the Twitter right.

Rob: 42:15

I know, because I don't have Twitter. I don't have Twitter, the Twitter and the threads yes.

Jess: 42:21

Awesome.

Hannah: 42:21

We love you guys.

Jess: 42:22

We hope your new year is awesome. Yes, cheers to 2024.

Rob: 42:26

You can find all our social media sites on our website, which is wickedwanderingspodcastcom. It is down below in the show notes.

Hannah: 42:34

Love you mean it. Bye, Bye. Thanks for listening today. The show wouldn't be possible without our amazing producer and editor, Rob Fitzpatrick, who works tirelessly behind the scenes to bring you the best content.

Jess: 42:47

And a special thanks to Tyga Soundprod for providing the captivating intro music. Cinematic intro 24.

Hannah: 42:54

And of course, we can't forget the hauntingly beautiful outro music, Rhino's Theme, composed by Kevin MacLeod.

Jess: 43:01

If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to leave a rating and review on our favorite podcast platforms like Spotify, apple and YouTube. Your feedback means the world to us.

Hannah: 43:12

Also be sure to follow us on Instagram for behind the scenes glimpses, updates and more thrilling content. You can find us at WickedWanderings Podcast.

Jess: 43:20

Thank you so much for listening and being part of our WickedWanderings community. We appreciate each and every one of you. Stay curious.

Hannah: 43:28

Keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering.