Hannah: 0:00

Fuck, yeah, we're going. Yeah, we'll go over in a little box if you want to come for a girl's weekend. I'm serious like I am down all bunk with you. Yeah, rob can sleep on the table and I think, be the big spoon. Of course you can. I hate being the big spoon. Okay, good, as long as you don't mind me farting. See who's the stinkiest.

Jess: 0:27

Okay, hello wanderers. I'm Jess and I'm Hannah, and welcome to wicked wanderings. Hello Hannah, hello Jess, how's it going?

Hannah: 0:40

Well, you know what you really want. I mean, you are a therapist now, so if you really want to hear my problems, I do charge a hundred dollars an hour. Fuck that shit but I will take my dog, I'll take spaghetti and payment.

Jess: 0:50

Instead we have skidding meatballs Perfect, it's my favorite meal, cuz I'm a little kid.

Hannah: 0:57

Dino nuggets yes.

Jess: 1:01

Also guess what I learned today? Please tell me so. I Sorry wanderers for the little bit of rambling, but I am starting my journey in the world of substance use and therapy. Oh and I learned today that that cocaine.

Hannah: 1:18

Increase. It is not a sedative.

Jess: 1:20

Cocaine is not a sedative and Increases your dopamine by 350%. No wonder people use it. Yes, so you guys are welcome for that knowledge. Don't use drugs, but wow. So it is definitely not a sedative. Anyways, let's get on cocaine. Let's get back to Israel keys. So I Wish I could spend like a whole season on everything I do, just because I want to add like every Piece of information because I think it's helpful. Yeah, however, this is not that podcast. Maybe someday.

Hannah: 2:05

But your prince will come, I was gonna say over the rainbow.

Jess: 2:13

You had Disney vibes going. It's somewhere over the rainbow, been a long week. Get your songs right. So I listened to a podcast called true crime bullshit oh, which that sounds fun. Goes into a deep dive of Israel keys Like this. This guy who does it did the freedom of information Requests and he has a lot of the interviews Mm-hmm, and it makes me so Angry because I listened to him. Not the podcast, but interviews, interviews with Israel, with Israel, and he is just laughing like, oh yeah, this happened and but and it just he's psychotic. Yes.

Hannah: 3:03

So from any way background, though this kid had no chance.

Jess: 3:06

Yes, he was pretty much born a douche canoe. I mean that should have been his middle name on his birth certificate, because I hate, hate, hate. The nature versus nurture argument, because it's not really. Yes, because it's not one or the other, it's both of them, and then a hell of a lot more. There's so many things that go into what.

Hannah: 3:29

Yeah, no, absolutely I don't. I don't believe it's just one thing absolutely not. Because if you have a family with mental health issues and you throw them into the best environment possible like think about kiddos that are adopted, yeah, mm-hmm, they still got those mental health issues that are in their DNA you can't change that. Yeah no hundred percent. Yeah, I just didn't believe in it. No, I hate the nature versus nurture like the versus yes, yeah, no, it's not no combination.

Jess: 3:55

No time for that. At the wicked wanderings pocket, no guy, no time for bullshit no time. So, if you remember, last week we talked about the disappearance of Samantha Koenig and the eventual arrest of one Israel douche Cano keys. She was looking at you, I'm sorry. Oh, kenzie, come here. They have the cutest dog wanderers. What is she? She works your terrier like a little one.

Hannah: 4:23

She's little. She's only four point two pounds. I know she's not a teacup.

Jess: 4:28

She's adorable and I'm her favorite. I'm on to just now. Anyway, okay, sorry, jess.

Hannah: 4:34

So I was looking at you so I had to say something.

Jess: 4:36

She's adorable so Israel douche canoe keys was arrested in Texas, some 4,000 miles away from where Samantha disappeared right there because there was a.

Hannah: 4:48

He was on a cruise or some shit, right.

Jess: 4:49

Well, he did, but this time he was In Texas for a family wedding right. Yes right, okay, and he was extradited back to Alaska to be interviewed by the FBI, and that took like two weeks for them to get him back. So in the meantime they had a warrant to search his house Well, his girlfriend's house his truck and yard, and they were able to take some computers that keys had access To, as well as other pieces of evidence.

Hannah: 5:19

It's not like TV where it happens on no 10 seconds. No, I mean.

Jess: 5:24

We're still talking about true crime, right? Just getting, he said taking 10 seconds.

Hannah: 5:33

Wow, okay, I'm a little slow, a little bit moving on, moving on so on Friday, march 30th.

Jess: 5:41

So keep in mind this is a full month from the time of the ransom note, which was on February 24th, and A month from when he was arrested. Okay, so investigators got word that keys wanted to talk. He had two demands at first. He wanted the death penalty off the table. Of course he did, and he wanted very little information given to the media. Reason because he wanted his daughter to have a chance at life and didn't want the information that he gave to get to her. So if keys didn't, what is crazy? And we'll talk more about this at the end because I'm so flabbergasted for a good word about how Things would have been different if keys didn't talk. So if keys didn't talk about Samantha, they didn't have a body. They didn't have any evidence really To connect him to her disappearance. They could only charge him with fraudulent ATM withdrawals and nothing more.

Hannah: 6:46

Wait, that's what the arrest was for, mm-hmm.

Jess: 6:50

Because, which would have only given him six months in prison, and if that, because he didn't have a criminal record. So who knows if he would have gotten probation. So having Key's talk was very important. There was not enough evidence to take him to court over the disappearance of Samantha. Isn't that crazy?

Hannah: 7:11

You know, if Ted Bundy was one of his big wigs that he looked up to, ted Bundy was the same way in a lot of ways, because he loved talking. They all do they love?

Jess: 7:23

talking about what they did. Yeah, it's so narcissistic.

Hannah: 7:26

They do. They do Like well, I know things, you don't, and so they tell little tidbits here and there, yeah, just enough.

Jess: 7:34

And we'll see that with Key's as well. It's like he'll give just enough, so he'll be like man. I don't feel like talking anymore about it.

Hannah: 7:43

Yep.

Jess: 7:43

Yep, ted Bundy would do the same thing.

Jess: 7:45

That's crazy. So, like I said, they didn't have any other evidence. So they needed Key's to talk. They needed to find Samantha in order to charge him with her murder. So when they sat down for the first interview, he stated that he was only talking to make things easier for himself and his family and that down the line he would have more requests that he expected expected to be honored as well. They didn't waste any time asking Key's where Samantha was. So Key's told them to pull up Google Maps and zoom in on Madanuska Lake State Park and focus on the lake. He had been ice fishing on that lake in late February and he had built an ice fishing shed. Once inside the shed he said he had cut an eight by eight hole in the ice, covered it with plywood and left. He had to make three trips because he couldn't park close to the lake and he had to pull Samantha's body in the sled. He told investigators the first trip was the head, legs and the arms.

Jess: 8:54

Key's goes on to tell investigators the night he kidnapped Samantha. After driving around and prepping the shed at his house, he finally takes her into the shed around 2 am he put a blindfold on her because he didn't want her to see where she was when she was in the shed. He had her sit on a five gallon bucket, tied a rope around her neck and screwed it to the wall. He said she was very cooperative, which I'm willing to bet that at that point Samantha still believed that Key's was telling her about the ransom and that he was gonna let her go. This is when he asked her for her information so he could go get the license and her debit card from the house. So what we need to know about Key's, just like most serial killers, is that he liked the control, oh God, yeah.

Jess: 9:43

Obviously, he would only tell investigators what he wanted to, obviously, and the information that he knew they already had access to on the computer that they confiscated. Key's would give them some information. Then, like I said, he would say eh, I don't think I'm gonna talk about that anymore today. They asked what he did in the two hours from when he attempted the ATM and when he called for a cab for him and his daughter to go on their cruise. Key said he didn't feel like talking about it, but they asked him if Samantha was alive for the ransom note. Key's replied nope. They asked if she was alive when he came back from his cruise. Nope, he replied, and then admitted that he had killed Samantha before he left on the cruise and left her body in the shed while he was gone for two weeks. Did he have a lawyer at this time? He was a pointed one and was a very good attorney, but he wanted to fire him and he wasn't able to Like whatever laws are in place.

Hannah: 10:49

Dude, this is like Ted Bundy, because then he I mean I feel like I'm overlapping cases but he said he liked Ted Bundy. So Ted Bundy was like no, no, no, I've had this lawyer school and blah, blah, blah. Like I know what I'm doing, I'll go over this myself, yeah.

Jess: 11:02

And we'll see later on why he didn't want this attorney. So they asked him what he did to Samantha during those two hours, and keys refused to tell them again and would only tell a certain agent, who happened to be a woman, of course they asked yeah. They asked why and keys replied because that's the way I am, Whatever that means. What a fucking dick, oh my God. In the book American Predator by Maureen Callahan which, by the way, do you recommend the book?

Hannah: 11:33

I recommend yes.

Jess: 11:35

And I listened to the audio book and it's one of those where the narrator does all the voices there's not a split.

Jess: 11:41

So she does the voice of Israel keys for the interviews. So if that doesn't bother you, the audio book is good, but yeah, I would recommend this one. She states that this is where keys realized that he had control of the interview. And this is where keys starts with his demands again. He wanted them to quit searching his girlfriend's house and that they had to get his approval to search it. Pretty sure he has no legal claim to do that, but whatever.

Jess: 12:12

But it showed keys how desperate they were for information and this is probably why a lot of people haven't heard about Israel keys, because the FBI kept to their word for most of it and they didn't release very much to the press during all this time.

Jess: 12:29

So he also didn't want them to interview his girlfriend anymore. He told them that she had no idea what was going on and that she wouldn't have anything to add. And keys told the investigators that no one really knew him and that he was two different people and that the only person who knew everything was him and they didn't need to talk to anybody else. So throughout the interviews people, like some witnesses, called the tip line and were like oh man, keys is amazing. I gave him the key to my house to do construction and he was great, he was so nice. And then you have this douche canoe side of him that kidnaps and kills people. Oh my God, yeah. So we're starting to see a pattern here in the interviews he gives them a bombshell of information and he gives them just a little bit more information and then, when they ask for more, he goes like OK, I want to talk about that part.

Jess: 13:28

So right when they're hooked, he's like hmm, yeah, he has them by a little, so he had full control, and it makes me wonder if he enjoyed seeing the investigators struggle when he refused to talk.

Jess: 13:43

When the interview started again, keyes admitted that he had prepped the shed a few days earlier and put a plastic tarp on the floor so her DNA could not be found in the shed. He hadn't fully decided on where he wanted to take someone from. He was actually looking in another town and he was looking specifically at the coffee kiosks because they had teenage girls and they often were open late and they were kind of secluded. But he saw Samantha at the coffee shop and he liked the look of her and so that's who he kidnapped. So, like I said, he was going back to her house to get the debit card from the truck and her ID and after checking the pin to make sure it worked, he went back home and she had asked him if he was able to get a hold of her dad. Keyes told her yes and everything was fine. Then he knelt down in front of her and unscrewed her rope from the wall. He restrained her again a little more like securely using rope instead of cable ties.

Jess: 14:50

Keyes told investigators that Samantha had known at that moment that she was not going to make it home. Keyes then sexually assaulted Samantha twice. When he was done he stood above her as she tried to talk him out of killing her, and then he proceeded to strangle her. Keyes told investigators that he had also stabbed her below the shoulder blade, but not to quicken the death, and he would not go into more detail about the strangling or the stabbing of her because he didn't want to share that part. So this is an example of yeah, I killed her and this is what I did, but I don't want to get in the nitty gritty about it. So it kind of makes me wonder did he want to keep it to himself? Was that his little moment that he had along with Samantha? Did he not want to incriminate himself anymore? He was already telling them enough.

Hannah: 15:45

I doubt he was feeling shame or nervous about it, I feel like it's when these serial killers, these criminals, keep just a little bit of their victims. So you find that shoebox that's full of trinkets. You know, sometimes it's jewelry, sometimes it's a little bit of hair Panies, Panies. Sometimes it's actually an ear or finger. So I think that's just something that he was like. You know, I really keep it as a trophy for myself, yeah that's a possibility.

Jess: 16:18

He wrapped Samantha's body in a tarp and put her in the bottom cabinet in the shed. He went and took a shower and then woke up his daughter to leave for the cruise.

Hannah: 16:27

Oh my God, you went right. Oh my God, right for your daughter.

Jess: 16:32

It was 20 degrees outside and he figured her body would be fine until he got back, and he didn't worry about getting caught because, well, there was no evidence and the case would have gone cold by the time he got back. After posing Samantha and taking the ransom picture, like I went more into more detail in the previous episode, keys put Samantha's body in a rolling tote and then cut her body into smaller, more manageable pieces. I struggle with how much detail to give to the wanderers and to you, hannah, because I want to be respectful of the victims.

Hannah: 17:09

Yeah, absolutely.

Jess: 17:11

And their families. But I feel like some of this is needed to just see how fucked up this guy is.

Hannah: 17:20

It is a line though because I know, in some of my episodes, like another one that recorded tonight, or later where I was like hmm, like is this part really needed? And I decided at that moment that it wasn't just because it's everyone has an imagination, I agree, like there's sometimes where it's like no, it needs to be told what happened to these people.

Jess: 17:42

Yeah.

Hannah: 17:43

So that it keeps our memory alive. Yes, it is a fine line, mm-hmm.

Jess: 17:49

So he went on three different trips to the Madanuska Lake and disposed of her body piece by piece. It was less suspicious that way. On the first day he went out 200 yards onto the ice and cut an eight by eight hole, like I mentioned, and built the shed. The second day he took out a couple of parts of Samantha's body. He weighed them down with lead weights and dumped them into the hole. He stated that dumping the body took about five to 10 minutes and the rest of the body two more days to dispose of. He didn't want to look suspicious so he took his time and once he dumped the last of it he decided to go fishing in the same hole. What a dick.

Hannah: 18:32

Oh my God, I wonder if you can see my face right now.

Jess: 18:34

I was just thinking I'm like we really need to record, we really should.

Hannah: 18:38

What, what yeah.

Jess: 18:42

Mm-hmm, what. No humanity in this man whatsoever.

Hannah: 18:47

You know, I guess, coming from like a religious standpoint, I like to think I have some type of faith. This is not the creation that God wanted. Mm-hmm, I just like flabbergasted right, it's God just up there going like what the fuck are you guys doing down there?

Jess: 19:04

I mean, everybody has their own agency. You know, and that's Wait, what Agency? What? Maybe that's a Mormon thing. What does that mean? Make their own decisions, their own choices? Oh, agencies, Mormons call it free agency, oh, we call it free will.

Hannah: 19:21

Oh well, there you go, free will. Free agency, Okay, agencies, like I'm just like picturing like men at a desk in like different doors. Anyways, different podcasts.

Jess: 19:30

Yeah. So the investigators went to Manta Madda Nuska Lake I think I'm pronouncing that right and walked 50 feet to a fresh pile of snow. They kicked away some of the snow and found the hole. The FBI dive team was called out to search for Samantha's body and they brought a 10-man team who were eager to find her. They asked for four tents two for their monitors, one for the divers to change in and one to hide what they recovered from the lake. It took nearly two hours to set up and the investigators cut a hole into the three-foot-thick ice and they sent a sonar head into the water. It wasn't long before it pinged on five distinct targets. They then set the ROV that would send visual images and almost immediately, as it hit the bottom, 40 feet below, it showed one of the targets a human foot. The remains weren't wrapped, they were naked and attached to lead weights, and they were able to confirm at that point that human remains were found Next it was the divers' turn.

Jess: 20:39

Two men each took 15 minutes to make it down the 41 feet to the bottom of the lake, and that was shallow for this lake. This lake could get up to 80 feet, I think I'm sorry, and this is in Alaska. Yeah, this is in Alaska, so it was cold. Yeah, they were able to recover all five sections that Keys had said he dropped down there and they finally had Samantha, oh my God. But investigators weren't done with Keys, and I guess Keys wasn't really done with them either, because he told them that he had a lot more stories. However, keys told investigators that he would talk on his terms and that there were specific things that he wanted, and he won't talk until he knew those things were possible. Keys wanted which is different from what he initially told him he wanted an execution date.

Hannah: 21:32

Wait what.

Jess: 21:33

Yeah, he did not want to stay in jail for years having automatic appeals for a capital punishment. He wanted an execution date within a year, but because of the protections that are in place in the legal system, it wasn't really responsible or possible.

Jess: 21:58

Yeah, he said they would try, and he said that he wanted it done within a year and if he was able to get that he would tell them every single gory detail. Keys said he wanted his daughter to have a place to grow up and not have all of this hanging over her head, and that wouldn't happen if he was still alive, going through appeals being executed.

Jess: 22:22

I don't get it. Somehow he has some sense of decency when it comes to his daughter, but not anybody else. The investigators told Keys that in order for that to happen, he needed another body. So they told him that Samantha wasn't enough to get what he wanted. So Keys sat for a minute and then agreed they actually give them two more bodies and a name On June 8th 2001,. So keep in mind, currently it was 2012 when he kidnapped and murdered Samantha. So back in 2001,. Keyes was visiting a family in Indiana and Maine. He had stopped to go fishing Wait, I'm sorry, you said Indiana and Maine.

Jess: 23:09

Yeah, so he would fly in to Indiana and then drive up to Maine.

Hannah: 24:44

Why the hell would he drive up to Maine? So we'll give in to them, All right, anywho keep going.

Jess: 24:50

He stopped to go fishing in Vermont and while fishing he got the itch again. He knew he had a kit buried nearby and he could easily do it.

Hannah: 24:59

What he had a kit buried in Vermont.

Jess: 25:02

You see, israel Keyes was meticulous when he committed his murders. This specific kit in Vermont was buried two years prior just for a situation such as this. Get the fuck out. In fact, this wasn't the only murder kit Keyes had buried. He would never confess to how many murder kits were buried, but he said there were a lot and they were all over the United States. So, wanderers, if you ever find one of those orange five gallon buckets with weapons and drain-o and rope and duct tape, drain-o yeah, he would put drain-o in them and possibly guns. That is one of Israel Keyes' murder kits that he's buried.

Hannah: 25:49

Please call the police.

Jess: 25:50

Please call the police. Yes, Wow. The same night, 49-year-old Army veteran Bill Currier and his wife, Lorraine, 55, were asleep in their bed in Essex, a small town outside of Burlington, Vermont. They were awoken to a sound of a crash and were waking up they're still kind of a little groggy when a man wearing a mask came into their bedroom.

Jess: 26:16

In Keyes' interview about the crime he said it was a blitz attack in that he had to show who was in charge very quickly. He had tied them up with their hands behind their back with cable ties and then he tied their hands to their feet together. Keyes said that when he was talking to them, asking questions, he asked if they had an alarm, if they had a safe, where the guns were, where the cash was and where the ATM cards were. They tried to ask Keyes what he was trying to do and he kept having to tell them to shut up and not talk to each other.

Jess: 26:53

While Keyes was robbing the couple, he would periodically go back and check on them in the room. They were trying to communicate with each other and Lorraine had tried to roll over and he became angry because he felt like they weren't taking the situation seriously. So he eventually went up to Lorraine, grabbed the back of her neck, shoved her head down into the pillow and began to threaten her, and really all of this only took about 15 minutes. He was only in the home for about 15 minutes. He forced the couple into their car and drove them to a second location, which was an abandoned farmhouse that Keyes had previously scoped out. The couple which he mentions earlier about this is that this abandoned farmhouse was like 200 yards from another house, or 100 yards from another house where a cop lived because there was a cruiser in the driveway. Why would he pick this house?

Hannah: 27:51

He was testing his limits, he was like nope, I'm going to outsmart these bastards.

Jess: 27:57

The couple became more difficult for Keyes after he got them in the car. They tried to talk to him while he drove them around, and Keyes found out that he and Bill had actually served in the same unit in the Army, the 25th Infantry. When he was looking through their stuff he found like a little patch or something, and so he asked Bill about it.

Hannah: 28:19

So they're both veterans. Okay, I'm curious, like, as you know this, when people are like oh, I was in the blah blah blah infantry and like oh, I was in the same, like how, how, what, how does that?

Jess: 28:30

work. Well, I mean, with the Army it's different, but like this is weird to me because there's some, there's an unspoken brotherhood and camaraderie for people who have been in the military, especially the same unit, and it's obviously, it's obvious that they were at different times.

Hannah: 28:50

Oh, so it could be the same unit number but different times. Yeah, Okay, that makes more sense, Cause you know, sometimes you see these shows and they bring that up and you're like, well, how did you not know each other?

Jess: 29:02

But if it was a different, yeah, like an airborne tons of people, not tons of people, but that's like the paratroopers and was that what you read, oh? Okay, I'm not that tough. That's like the paratroopers, yeah.

Hannah: 29:17

No, I think you're badass. Thanks, that's a badass bitch Fuck him Ronnie.

Jess: 29:20

Anyway, okay, Um firing? No, far from so. The couple kept asking why he was doing it. He had told them the same thing that he had told Samantha and that it was kidnapped for ransom. So he'd used the same ruse 11 years before. So when they got to the farmhouse he thought that he had Lorraine secure in the front seat of the car and he planned to leave her in the car while he took Bill downstairs into the basement. So there was a stool down there and keys had used cables. So Bill was kind of leaning over any over the stool. So I'm imagining this is what I imagine the top of the stool was on Bill's stomach. So his hands were tied, but also his feet were tied to the stool. So and this is one of the situations where keys laughs as he's retelling the story but as he finished tying Bill up, he looked upstairs and Lorraine had gotten out of the car and was standing in the top.

Jess: 30:23

Lorraine took off running and he eventually tackled her and brought her back into the house. He took her upstairs and tied her up with duct tape behind her back and then tied her up with a rope so that she wasn't able to escape. So he like tied her onto this mattress with ropes pulling her arms and her legs and around her neck so she couldn't move and if she moved it would like tighten. So while he was doing this he heard some noises downstairs and he found Bill who was also trying to get out of his cable ties. Bill was being difficult, which was pissing keys off, so he hit him with a shovel. But Bill kept fighting, so keys ran upstairs and got his Ruger 1022 with a silencer and ran downstairs. He ended up shooting him and emptying his magazine into Bill. He waited until Bill wasn't going to get back up and he didn't know if he was dead or not. But he went back upstairs and proceeded to sexually assault Lorraine twice. I'm seeing something here, oh God.

Jess: 31:30

I am too unfortunately, and then he took her downstairs to the basement and strangled her and he left their bodies there. And you want to know the shitty thing about for Bill and Lorraine?

Hannah: 31:44

Wait there's another shitty thing for Bill and Lorraine. Yes.

Jess: 31:48

Is that they were not. His first choice of the night Keys was casing an apartment building and he was waiting for the right person and he had seen a man pull up and park Keys was walking up to the back of his car and it was raining and the man had gotten out of the car and ran into the apartment. He said in his interview that if the man would have been five seconds slower he would have been the victim that night and not Bill and Lorraine. So the keys picked locations and the people were completely random. With this information, the FBI went to Vermont to find the old farmhouse that keys identified, but unfortunately the house had been torn down and bulldozed over. The remnants of everything had been taken to the dump and searches of the dump went on for weeks to no avail. Bill and Lorraine's bodies were never found. Were they in the house? They were in the house, but they tore the house down and everything was bulldozed.

Hannah: 32:52

You didn't check the house before you bulldozed.

Jess: 32:54

I mean it had been a while, but there were some sources that said that whoever went to bulldoze the house, there was a horrible smell, but it was never mentioned that they saw bodies.

Hannah: 33:07

You would think they would check the house. Okay, yeah, I'm not wrong.

Jess: 33:11

Unbelievable. During their interviews with keys he would ask if they found the bodies and the investigators told him not yet but they needed more time. And keys was getting frustrated In all of his bargaining with the investigators. He was able to get internet access and one time he met with the investigators he asked the status of the search and the investigators said that they still were Well. Keys said that well, I saw online and it looks like they called off the search because they were unable to find Bill and Lorraine. So keys responds with something along the lines of hmm well, I guess I mentioned them too soon. Like I mentioned earlier in the episode, keys was only willing to tell them information he knew they already had and it was a matter of time. So now I'm not entirely sure what exactly was on the computer, but it was mentioned in one of the sources that keys had searched for the couple and he had a tendency, like an addiction, to search for missing people. So if that's all that they had was an internet search for this couple on that computer, they still wouldn't have had enough to take keys to trial. So I'm not sure what they were going to find. But if he had not said anything, I'm wondering if they would have ever figured out what happened to the couriers. Most likely nothing. So keys kind of fucked himself when he told investigators about the couple, because up until now the FBI could control what was being let out to the media and they could still bargain with keys. But now the Vermont authorities knew about keys and wanted to prosecute him and it was something that the FBI could do nothing about. So after that keys stopped talking for like a month and wouldn't talk to investigators.

Jess: 35:05

The interviews eventually continued and we are able to see the escalation of crimes with keys, from animal cruelty to rape and sexual assault to murder. Key stated that he hadn't done anything drastic until he was out of the army. Well, I'm pretty sure keys has a different idea of what is drastic from the rest of us. Yeah, and that's a safe bet.

Jess: 35:28

Yeah, in the summer of 97 or 98, keys sexually assaulted a teenage girl who had been tubing down the Deschutes River in Oregon.

Jess: 35:37

She was kind of falling behind her friends and he admitted to stalking her from the tree line. He pulled her off the inner tube and took her into the outhouse where he violently sexually assaulted her by knife. Point Key said during the interview she wasn't as scared as he thought she'd be, like she had had this happened before. She had kept talking to him and telling him that he was good looking and he didn't need to do this and that she probably would have gone on a date with him. It was starting to rub him the wrong way and he was originally planning on killing this girl as part of the satanic ritual like we mentioned in the previous episode, but he said he was too timid and not violent enough to follow through with it and let her go. I call bullshit, but he vowed to never let that happen again. There were also rumors from his unit about some sexual assault he committed while he was in Egypt, but nothing drastic until he came home.

Hannah: 36:37

I'm curious what the parameters are for quote drastic what his definition of drastic is yeah cause.

Jess: 36:43

assault is assault. So Key's admits that his murders are sexually driven, something that he had in common with Bundy, which is probably why he idolized him. He was very meticulous and would go to extreme measures not to leave any evidence behind. He would wear gloves so there wouldn't be any fingerprints. He burned anything that did have evidence on him. He would wear different jackets so he would carry a couple different jackets with him and then change in case there were eyewitnesses so they'd get it mixed up.

Hannah: 37:18

I'm surprised he didn't have a bug Because Ted.

Jess: 37:21

Bundy had a bug card, even with his murder kits. He made sure the evidence in those kits would not be tied to him and this is also why he didn't have a type. He admitted, like I said, to picking the location but not the person. The person would be one of convenience in a place that he had already had it planned out. He said that it was easier to go for a random person because it was harder to connect to him. He would fly into one state like Indiana or Illinois, drive to a family function three states away and then kill somebody on the way. So there was really no paper trail and he would have an alibi. He always went around family functions or other things. He went to crazy lengths to hide what he was doing and he would even turn his cell phone off and take his battery out when he was killing. Which is evidence in itself, because behind the scenes the FBI, who had records of his travel such as plane tickets and car rentals, painstakingly compared his travel, his cell phone kind of his MO, with people missing within the 400 mile radius of the areas he visited.

Jess: 38:41

One victim that was identified the FBI believe is the work of Keyes is Debra Feldman. Debra, 48, disappeared from her home in Hackensack, new Jersey, on April 8, 2009. She was a troubled drug addict who may have been farming herself as a prostitute as well, which Keyes admitted to visiting prostitutes. There isn't much information about her disappearance, but after they compared her case with his travel plans, they decided to approach Keyes. So Debra's wasn't the only case they approached him about this day. They had a few pictures of missing people that aligned with his travel. They showed Keyes the pictures and the ones he didn't do he'd say nope, nope, nope. But then they came to Debra's picture. He paused and said I don't want to talk about her yet.

Jess: 39:38

When Keyes talked about Bundy in his interviews, he said that Bundy had lost control. Towards the end, he became careless or overconfident, which seems to be the same thing that happened to Keyes. There was a lot he did differently when it came to Samantha Koenig that eventually led to his arrest, and we will never know for sure who his other victims are. On December 1st 2012, 10 months to the day that Samantha Koenig died, israel Keyes committed suicide in his prison cell with a razor blade and a noose. Sometime after 10pm, he had left 12 drawings of skulls drawn with his own blood. The words we are. One written underneath one of them Skulls, skulls. Yeah, I don't know if you can see them.

Hannah: 40:34

So is he saying there were 12 victims.

Jess: 40:36

Well, the FBI seems to think that there were 11 victims and the 12th skull was his.

Hannah: 40:42

I mean, he kind of was a victim in and of himself.

Jess: 40:47

So some people think he killed way more than that. Wow, but now we will never know. And that is my summarized version of Major Dush Canoe Israel Keyes.

Hannah: 41:03

So he used the razor blade, he made those skull drawings, and then he had a noose.

Jess: 41:09

So, like I said, true Crime Bullshit podcast goes into a lot of like the specifics. I kind of like this all. So I also watch Dark Minds on, I believe, id, which I got some information of it. The guy is a journalist and he's a little dramatic, but it was a good episode. However, I can't remember which one it was, but they said he had a rope around his neck and then kind of tied with his foot so he could keep the pressure around his neck, I guess, and then he slit his wrists.

Jess: 41:50

Wow, and there was one detective that was trying to get all you know the guards to watch more on him and what he had access to. He wasn't supposed to have razor blades Right, and somehow they kept giving him a razor blade. But a good thing that I can really appreciate from the True Crime Bullshit episode is he talks about the sources, and I see this a lot in the sources that I read for the episodes, because he says that if things are mentioned in one source and then it's mentioned in another source, then people tend to take that as fact and then spread it, and that's kind of why what I try to do with my episodes is I take the information that I find that is similar in each source, and I don't mention what is different between the sources, and I think that's very true, because there was some information in one source about him having ties to someone that was indicted to the Oklahoma City bombing but or not indicted, implicated.

Hannah: 43:08

Yeah.

Jess: 43:09

And then in another source, they hadn't met until after the Oklahoma City bombings happened, and so, and then there was some mention of necrophilia in one source and then the other one was like there's nothing confirmed that he did that and so, and so it's tough to find, especially with social media nowadays when information can get spread. So I hope I did justice for the victims and I wish we could talk about more and true crime bullshit actually goes into a lot of the potential victims that could be linked to him and they researched his travel records with these people and if he really thinks that he was the one that's responsible and a lot of them keys was in the area like two or three days before these people went missing. Yeah, highly suspicious.

Hannah: 44:10

And that's kind of why I do books. I'm not saying books can't be bullshit, yeah, but I at least feel like there's some more. What is it? They say weights and yeah.

Jess: 44:20

Bound levers. What is it? I don't know.

Hannah: 44:24

Anyways, there's there's people looking at it, so I feel like at least there's that. Editors yeah.

Jess: 44:29

Yeah, so, but I mean saying look at the book that you use for more Murray.

Hannah: 44:35

Yeah, oh God, because that was not a good book. No, that was more about his own personal issues.

Jess: 44:40

Yeah, Keys was actually brought up in more Murray. Like more, murray was actually brought up as one of keys potentials victims what? But he was in California at the time that she disappeared.

Hannah: 44:53

Girl. I was going to say, if that was the thing I'm like, why did you say it?

Jess: 44:56

right now, because he was proven to be somewhere else.

Hannah: 45:01

I am so invested still in more Murray that I want to know what happened to her so bad. I know we don't know. It's our first episode.

Jess: 45:08

Guys like we invested in our own backyard and there's so many mysteries to it. But yeah, so that's Israel keys.

Hannah: 45:17

Well, thank you, for I mean not talking about him because we don't care about him, but thank you for talking about something.

Jess: 45:22

But at the same time he's so intriguing. Yes, mental health, wise. Yes, Like, yeah, we think I think in wise. Why does he do the things he does?

Hannah: 45:32

Because he's a psychopath. Why is he does this? Damn punnams.

Jess: 45:36

Okay, wow, damn punnams. Also like and subscribe everywhere and please tell your friends to listen to some wicked wanderings.

Hannah: 45:46

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Jess: 45:49

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Hannah: 45:52

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Jess: 45:57

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Hannah: 46:01

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Jess: 46:02

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Hannah: 46:06

We will try to do better about posting, because I feel like Jess is actually really good. I'm not I don't know why, I don't know why I'm so bad, but Jess is very, very good, I try.

Jess: 46:17

And then we have a Wicked Wanderings Facebook page. So like yes and then email Join Follow.

Hannah: 46:24

We have an Instagram, a twitter slash x we have a threads. We do have a threads yeah, yeah, and we have a website yes, wicked wanderings podcast dot com.

Jess: 46:37

So thank you for listening, thanks for coming come again.

Hannah: 46:40

Thanks, I love you the show wouldn't be possible without our amazing producer and editor, rob fits patrick, who works tirelessly behind the scenes to bring you the best content and a special thanks to tiger sound prod for providing the captivating intro music.

Jess: 46:54

Cinematic intro 24 and of course, we can forget the hauntingly beautiful outro music, rhino's theme, composed by kevin mccloud if you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to leave a rating and review on our your favorite podcast platforms like spotify, apple and youtube.

Hannah: 47:11

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Jess: 47:19

You can find us at wicked wanderings podcast thank you so much for listening and being part of our wicked wanderings community.

Hannah: 47:27

We appreciate each and every one of you stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering you.