Hannah: 0:01

me, me, me, me me. I feel like I have to warm up. What do you need to do? Like I'm gonna sing. You know like singers are like oh, no, no.

Courtney: 0:12

So when I went to go visit my college roommate, paula last weekend yes, she was we were sitting at dinner in a very paula kind of way and I was like oh my god, these hannah and paula need to meet, because paula was was like, bro, you know how much I love Ted Bundy and I was like that's so funny, because I must just attract people who love Ted Bundy.

Hannah: 0:33

I know it's awful of me to say it's not like I. I don't agree with what he did, obviously, but there's something about him that is, yeah, very mysterious and he's interesting on a psychological level.

Courtney: 0:43

Yeah, for me, she's always been fascinated with prison. So I met paul when I was 18 with prison, prison. She's been fascinated with prison, like something about prison just like knocked her socks off. I don't know what it was. She I mean she had never gone to prison. But she needs prison. Kink, she might. Yeah, and she's like watching all these documentaries. And her poor boyfriend was like we must have seen the ted bundy things like 16 000 times. He's like she could just fall asleep to it casually. I'm like stuff I can fall asleep to. Are you sure you don't want to be gay for hannah? Honestly, I think I've gotten to the point where I read smut everywhere. Yesterday I was just casually waiting for maria to get um over to the restaurant. Yeah, and I'm just sitting there in Starbucks in East Longmeadow just reading some on my Kindle. This like little old man comes up to me and he's like excuse me, where did you get the case for your Kindle? I'm like, ooh, quick recovery, amazon. Who are you Kindle?

Hannah: 1:37

Yes, that's what I have in my hand, hold on.

Courtney: 1:40

I'm like, excuse me, excuse me.

Hannah: 1:42

It's like you have a little like hee, hee, hee.

Courtney: 1:43

No one knows what I'm writing here, I just feel like they do, though I feel like I have like a giveaway phase. No, I'm reading something and I feel like they're like yeah, that girl's.

Hannah: 1:51

The only give that? Well, only because I know you're reading it, but, like you, play with the cover on your Kindle.

Courtney: 1:59

That's my ADHD. I have a like on my phone. You can see this section is lifted up.

Hannah: 2:04

I tinker with it constantly you need to get the the backings of the phones that have the bubble.

Courtney: 2:09

I don't like those no but there's one that has a fidget. I was rubbing the can on my truly earlier, true, whatever, that's true. I did this and I just saw the guy in the parking lot. Yeah, that guy in the parking lot earlier was like you just know, that guy was a cop in another life. Sir, don't tell me where to go, fuck the patriarchy, but let me call you daddy. No, that guy didn't. He was not daddy quality.

Hannah: 2:32

Oh no, not him, but just like you know, I don't know.

Courtney: 2:34

Do you want me to call you?

Hannah: 2:35

daddy, no, no, ew no all right, all right.

Courtney: 2:53

Why don't you drop us in with, uh, robert picton? I mean we have to greet each other because there's only two of us. I was like, who is she gonna greet? Like, okay?

Hannah: 3:08

Hi, I'm Hannah. Join me as I delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky. Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with me. This is Wicked Wanderings. Hi, courtney, hi, hannah, thank you for joining me tonight.

Courtney: 3:41

Thank, you for having me.

Hannah: 3:42

Rob is shirking his duties. He's working. He's shirking his duties.

Courtney: 3:45

He's working. He's shirking his duties. I should say that we are being left unsupervised. We did have a checklist, we did set checklists. We did the checklist already, and now the cats are free to play.

Hannah: 3:59

Pretty much and I'm going to quote, and here I am quoting, and here I am quoting and we're going to be talking about douchebags and it's going to be a good night let's get into it, I'm excited. I'm here for it. I've been waiting too long for this. So this is the second half of Robert Pickton. So if you haven't listened to the first one, gotta go back over. So I appreciate you joining me for the second part.

Courtney: 4:20

I was left on a cliffhanger. I just I kept thinking about this guy, I kept thinking about her, and I don't think anybody should eat during this episode. I'm going to put a disclaimer out, Thank you. I don't think anybody should be eating. If you're eating, please, please, please, please, pause. Yes.

Hannah: 4:33

And if body horror gets you, this is not it. Yeah, trigger warning. So we're in Vancouver, right, so 1997. Okay, there was an area of Vancouver that was known for its prostitution and drugs, which I think we kind of touched on before. Yeah, so people will go there to get a fix or their fantasy satisfied. No judgment, just whatever. Kinks be kinks. Yeah, kinks be kinks. So Pickton was one of these people that frequented the downtown area and he was distinguishable by his leather boots and smelly truck.

Courtney: 5:01

Great, that would get me in there smelly truck, right?

Hannah: 5:05

can you imagine, yum, yum. So saturday, march 22nd 1997, 31 year old prostitute known as stitch she wouldn't give her real name makes sense, makes sense, right? She was picked up by pinkton picked in that pinkton pick, din words. I haven't even gotten three sentences in. He wanted to bring her back to coke whitlam where he lived, but she did not want to venture that far outside the city. He sweetened the deal and she ended up getting in his truck. Oh bueno, oh bueno. She was freaked out by seeing another woman's bra on the seat.

Courtney: 5:36

That's what freaked her out about that situation. I know, sorry, I mean, that is true, that is true, it wasn't the overwhelming stink of his drive.

Hannah: 5:47

He wasn't a very attractive man either. But I know like when you choose, or are forced, unfortunately, to do that kind of work, you can't really be picky.

Courtney: 5:55

Yeah, I mean, it's no different than waiting on somebody as a barista. It's looking at it as a client, absolutely Yep.

Hannah: 6:01

So you're like I have a job to do, let's get this on. So she questioned him about it and he said it was from a previous date. He had last weekend. So Stitch knew something was up, but she was already committed. She kind of had like her sixth sense about it but she was like all right, whatever, let's just get this over with. So he had promised her more money, like just come out to cook with me, it'll be an hour and a half, let's just go. She remembers his trailer and how grubby and dirty it was, which should not surprise us based off of our previous episode talking about how his lifestyle was Right.

Courtney: 6:29

Makes sense. Based on his background, it makes sense. Yes.

Hannah: 6:32

One thing she said that freaked me out was she said in the back room there was a layer of plastic, plastic Down, with a sleeping bag on top.

Courtney: 6:40

Like for clarification purposes, like tarps were laid down on the floor and there was just like a sleeping bag on top of it.

Hannah: 6:45

That's how it seems, and so my mind goes straight to Dexter. I don't know if you've seen the show Dexter. Yeah, yeah, that's what it seemed like A layer of like that plastic.

Courtney: 6:52

Yeah, you're covering your crime, you're preparing to cover your crime. Yeah, no, that's that. Have a little class.

Hannah: 7:06

Yeah, exactly Exactly. She had asked him if she could borrow his phone so she could call her boyfriend at the time and let him know she would be home soon, while she was looking for the hotel number in the phone book old school right 1997. Pickton came up behind her and slapped a handcuff on her left hand. Now it sounds, from what I was understanding, that they had already done their business and she was just like okay, let me call him to let him know I'm on my way home.

Courtney: 7:33

Okay, kink, kink but not after the business. No, no, she knew something was wrong.

Hannah: 7:38

She knew something was wrong so she fought for her life because she had no idea what Picton was going to do. Was it rape, was it murder? Was it both? A butcher knife got involved and she said either he dies or I die. She was very honest about that. Yeah, she was stabbed four times before she was able to get away. She ran to the road where a car saw her and stopped calling her an ambulance. Picton had stab wounds as well, and he was able to drive himself to the same hospital. How ironic, I know right, a key was found in picton's pocket that matched the handcuffs of stitches wrists of stitches wrist. Picton had four charges against him, which included attempted murder. However and this will piss you off the charges were unlikely to stick because Stitch was a drug user, so the charges were not pursued. I'm sorry.

Courtney: 8:19

I have a lot of thoughts about this. Why is it no longer illegal to attempt to kidnap, rape, kill, etc. Somebody who happens to be using drugs?

Hannah: 8:30

Why do they become less of a human than the rest of us and a woman of the night. That's a continuous pattern throughout this whole investigation. Like, oh well, they're on drugs. Like, oh, they're a prostitute.

Courtney: 8:40

I mean, I can acknowledge also that in the 90s the way that we as a society looked at those things was very different. But gross, Still gross. It's awful, so picked him, was free to try again like it's it's horrendous to paint a picture and I'm sorry if you already said this he, he was a white man, right, and there were women of indigenous descent and so that also plays a key into it.

Hannah: 9:01

So it is extremely bothersome, yeah, that they were like, well, because this woman was on drugs, it's not even worth us pursuing. So it sounded like it was all up to the courts and I'm like, yeah, let's whatever this guy is now to be clear.

Courtney: 9:17

He's gotten away with criminal activity twice now, at least right that we're aware of, because there was the incident where he hit somebody with a car.

Hannah: 9:26

Yes, that we talked about in the previous episode and and his mom.

Courtney: 9:30

You are good, wasn't it his mom who threw the victim into the water and they? They didn't charge him because they realized that the person had actually drowned instead of being hit by the car yeah, but the mom wasn't charged, yep yep, because they had no idea of her involvement in it so now he has committed two felonies, at least plot, probably more never mind the fact that they have some type of um biker gang that's been involved on the farm for however long

Hannah: 9:55

damn it sounded like he was. A lot of their friends were talking on this documentary which will be in the show notes. It's on amazon um, about how they really took advantage of willie and it's not making excuses for him, but just talking about his childhood and who he was. It sounds like a lot of people took advantage of him even as a child, which is unfortunate. So they'd be like, hey, can I borrow a couple hundred bucks and he would just hand it to them. Yeah, he was very naive. It sounds like, yes, very, he was very. He had a childlike sense about him. I think that also with his background, with being able to kill things so easily.

Courtney: 10:34

That probably didn't help, surely not? I know we discussed in the last episode too that we weren't really sure, like if it was what he had been through that enticed him to be the way that he was, or if it was an always an instinct, because at first he didn't even want to butcher the animals. Right, he was. He had a lot of compassion for those animals. He really cared about them. So there's definitely a big like nature versus nurture, exactly exactly so.

Hannah: 10:57

It sounds like without both pieces he wouldn't have become the man that he was and something else that I don't mention in my write-up. But he kept like diaries, but they were verbal diaries, so he actually like recorded himself, so like they played some of it in the documentary, which is really interesting because you hear him kind of talking about his, his parents, and how he was raised and even how like they wouldn't even let him talk in the trial, which I thought was interesting too. I'm getting ahead of myself, but it was interesting to hear his voice.

Courtney: 11:28

Yeah about this. Yeah, absolutely. His own first perspective. Yeah, there's no watering that down, right, that's actually how he felt in those moments, exactly.

Hannah: 11:36

Yeah, in 1997, more than a dozen women disappeared from the Vancouver downtown east side. It continued into early 1998 as well. There was a hum around the city that something was going on, but because these women were prostitutes, drug users, some native, and also moved around a lot, people in law enforcement did not pay much attention. Finally, it reached a point where they began to investigate the suspicious disappearances. I appreciate this part because when they brought the behaviorist in they wanted to establish a base rate of what average they have in years prior. Which Baseline People after my own heart Right Girl, when they said this I was like oh you better have three to five data points for that baseline to be appropriate, which they did so from 1978 to 1994, it was zero, one or two, okay.

Hannah: 12:20

1995, on the trajectory went up dramatically. So then they asked why now? Why have no bodies been found? Why only women? They're asking all the right questions. The response to this from the police force was basically well, there is no evidence of homicide or a crime, so we will assign one more person to the missing persons unit and that's it.

Courtney: 12:40

So people are going missing way more people by their own data. Yep, and instead of saying you know, that is a great question, we should put some resources into that. They're like I mean, I guess we can put some effort into this, but only one more person's, you know, body weight and they talk about like oh, we're short staffed and like I understand that, but People are missing.

Hannah: 12:58

You look at the data. Yeah, data doesn't lie, dude, it was. They showed the chart. There's something going on, right?

Courtney: 13:06

There's something going on. It almost seems like an inside job when people are like no, no, no. You're like hmm, was there a political connection?

Hannah: 13:15

here. A tip did come through, a woman named Lisa Yelts who was a friend of Willie's and she did cleaning for him around his trailer. She apparently told a friend of hers that she was finding women's clothing, their IDs and some blood on the clothing around Willie's trailer. When she asked Willie about it, he said to just burn it all. When Lisa Yeltsin was approached about her conversation with the friend, she denied ever saying anything. So basically the friend was like yeah, like this was what I was told. And then Lisa's like nope, I have no idea what you're talking about. That never happened. How could you make up something like that?

Courtney: 13:44

Right. Why would the friend make that up? Where would that come from?

Hannah: 13:47

exactly so. She's interviewed in the documentary and she's actually talked about a lot in the book and it sounds like she was very loyal to willie. It sounds like they never really had a sexual relationship but like she would like cuddle with him, like that's something in the book, like they just would cuddle like he needed I don't know if it's more like a motherly affection and then she would clean around his apartment for him.

Courtney: 14:16

It does sound more motherly, and it would make sense because of the kind of odd relationship that he had with his mother to begin with.

Hannah: 14:21

Right. So, who knows? Early 1999, pickton was put on the police's radar as well as everyone else who was on the potential suspects list. Willie would employ people on his farm that would have drug addictions. One guy that actually lived in the trailer with Willie remembers an interaction they had. This is creepy. He said he was watching TV in his room and Willie came in, sat down on his bed and said they should go get a hooker together. The guy said that's not my thing, no, thanks, whatever. Willie kept trying to nudge him to go, with no avail. The guy said that's not my thing, no, thanks, whatever. Willie kept trying to nudge him to go, with no avail. Willie asked do you know what I do with hookers? Willie proceeded to take out a belt, a wire and handcuffs. He then acted out how he would stroke the hair on these women, handcuff them and put his belt around their neck, telling them it's okay, it will be over now, did he have some kind of like, like agenda?

Courtney: 15:51

he was living out like was he like saving people.

Hannah: 15:55

Quote unquote so in the book it actually talks about how, when willie would have these people on the farm, it was to help them. It was like, okay, I will help you get over your addiction and give you a job them. It was like, okay, I will help you get over your addiction and give you a job, but then, if they didn't, it doesn't sound like he took that very well. So, yeah, it could have been some godlike. I was gonna say, was he a religious man? I never read anything, he was religious at all, but sounds like he had some like godlike complex.

Hannah: 16:26

Yeah, to say like oh, it'll all be over soon just seems very, I'm gonna save you exactly yeah and I'm wondering if that's that's the kind of agenda that he had. So willie said you won't believe how much people bleed. I take them to the barn, hang them and gut them. A few days after this interaction he was asked by two of Picton's men to have a talk in the trailer. He was then beat on and said he stole from the trailer. He said I never stole anything and he realized this was probably a scare tactic to keep him from talking. He realized this job was not worth it and left knowing justice would come soon and he wanted no part of the farm anymore. He was also interviewed in the documentary, which was interesting. So this brings us to March 20th 1999.

Courtney: 17:12

And Willie wanted a prostitute. Go figure, man, this seems like a really common.

Hannah: 17:14

This guy was like fiending for prostitutes, yeah, and he brought along his recent employee friend with him, lynn Ellingson. Male or female? Female, okay, friend with him, lynn ellingson, male or female? Female, okay, she was employed at the farm and was given a couple hundred a day that, unfortunately, she used on drugs. So she would be paid. You know, she kind of worked in the office with faxes and everything and then she would just waste it along drugs. Okay, she said at points she was just high all the time.

Hannah: 17:35

They pulled up next to a potential and really propositioned her. She looked to lynn and asked if she was going to the farm too, and she's like, yeah, I live there. So she got in the truck thinking like, oh, another female's with him, like I'll just go. They had their drugs and alcohol and were looking for a good night. Willie took the prostitute to his room and Lynn went to her room. Something, though, told her to leave her room, so she went searching for them because she could not hear any noise. She could not find them in the trailer, and when she looked outside she saw the light on the barn where he slaughtered his pigs. She went inside the barn where she found the woman hanging. Willie pulled her aside and threatened her with the same end if she said anything. Out of fear, lynn agreed to keep it to herself, so just wanted the job to pay for her drugs, that's so sad.

Hannah: 18:16

Yeah, that's so sad, that's I don't even know who to be more sad for in that situation, I know I probably the dead person.

Courtney: 18:24

But like, imagine being so deep in your own addiction that you're faced with this huge moral thing and it's like no, I, I would have to, I have to have this so badly that you know and that was long before like treatment was readily oh yeah, so the 90s was not a good time for treatment for that kind of thing.

Hannah: 18:44

The media started giving these missing women coverage, and although the police department said they have no evidence of a crime yet, the people kept insisting justice. A tip came through of a man who claimed to be a friend of Lynn's. He said she told him of her experience with Willie Pickton that night, but because of his drug addiction he was not a credible storyteller. Again. What the fuck. Though this was still a good lead. So they asked him to come in and make a statement, though when he came to make the statement he was higher than a kite and so the statement would not be used. The police decided to go to the source of Lynn herself. Lynn was no longer on the farm, but they did find her, convincing her to come in for an interview.

Hannah: 19:27

Lynn knew exactly who told the police that tip and she denied ever saying that or ever seeing anything remotely like that. The police could not keep her because she was not under arrest, so they released her. Something, though that was a slip of the tongue, was that she made police think. After was that, when the police were trying to establish rapport and understanding like I can't imagine how horrific this must have been I've seen autopsies before. A dead body's not easy. She said yes, it was yellow, and gross police later realized no one would know that fat on a human body was yellow, unless you were a doctor or someone who has seen a person be cut open right. They asked lynn if she would do a lie detector test, and she agreed, but ended up disappearing before they could perform it. Instead of fleeing, she could have changed the course of history. Picton would have caught two years earlier and 11 more women would possibly have not gone missing.

Courtney: 20:06

So to be clear, he didn't make her disappear. She left on her own. She did leave on her own For a minute there I was like oh no, no, she was like fuck this shit. I'm like, yeah, she ran. Well, she probably. I mean, if you had seen somebody image to somebody, I'm sure you're like. He told me if I said anything that this would be oh 100. Absolutely, that's a very believable piece of evidence.

Hannah: 20:25

Yeah absolutely autumn 1999, picton was put in surveillance. Picton appeared inactive, not going anywhere. So one time picton was seen with someone in his car, he was pulled over and it was just his friend's 13 year old daughter. That's creepy, yeah, I don't love that immediately. But the police cover was blown so they started looking at other suspects and women kept disappearing and and I know, I know that's frustrating I know hindsight is 2020, but I'm like people just keep dropping the fucking right adult man is caught driving around with 13 year old girl.

Hannah: 21:01

Yeah, let's not think it's him, of course not january 19, 2000, picked and shows up at police headquarters. Apparently the police had been on the farm a couple times looking for willie but he was not there. Willie showed up at police headquarters with a friend on his own terms and they interviewed him for six and a half hours and relayed concerns they had. He told the police he would come by the property whenever they wanted, and so the police showed up, went to his trailer, found nothing in plain sight that was visible, so nothing was suspicious.

Hannah: 21:32

In the documentary the Pig Farm that is on Amazon Prime right now, they interviewed several different women that knew Picton and some stayed on the farm at one point or another. One particular woman, dinah when asked about certain women being at the farm and never seen again, she would refuse to say their name and end the conversation. At one point she walked off camera saying she was done having this conversation. That is not how someone that doesn't know something reacts. I am not blaming this person, but I'm sure she's scared, but that is not how someone reacts if they do not know anything.

Courtney: 21:59

It makes me wonder if he was also like an abusive person as well, beyond just the threats.

Hannah: 22:07

It makes me wonder if there was, you know, some kind of like. I would be interested to know. But there are some women that talk about him and it seems he was so docile.

Courtney: 22:14

I guess it probably depends on the person, right, yeah, because it seems like he mostly was targeting prostitutes.

Hannah: 22:22

Yeah, looking Seems like he mostly was targeting prostitutes. Yeah, looking at the timing of everything as well, this is the same time that the Green River killer was caught.

Courtney: 22:29

Which one was he again Remind us.

Hannah: 22:30

He was the guy in Seattle. Oh, okay, that did a bunch. I think it was. They said 48 women he killed Holy moly, that's a lot of.

Courtney: 22:41

that is a lot of people. That is a lot.

Hannah: 22:44

He was busy. Beginning of 2002, willie was one of 40 suspects on a list. A new tip came in from Scott Chubb I'm sorry for your name, sir. He told the police that there were illegal weapons on Pickton's property and he was hoping he would get some type of monetary reward for this tip. This tip had nothing to do with the missing women but since it was an eyewitness account, it got the police onto the property and without Pickton knowing they were coming. So February 5th 2002, they found women's clothes, syringes, ids and inhaler with a missing woman's name on it. Now they would check the entire farm for evidence of murder. Pickton got arrested and charged with two accounts of murder. I was like wait, what the fuck? Only two? Yeah, you're gonna be enraged. The police found pieces of bodies, teeth and personal items around the farm. Charges were changed to 26 accounts of murder. But you're gonna get more mad. The judge thought the jury would get confused with that many charges, so he split the case into two separate trials.

Courtney: 23:43

What, december 2007, the jury found picked and guilty of the first six murders, but in the second degree, not first, because it could not be established that he planned them I'm sorry if you've killed that many people like I mean, I can understand, like if you're enraged and something happens and you're in a psychological state and you kill someone and you're like, okay, I mean that person didn't have any idea what was happening, something traumatic had happened, but this man killed how many? 26 people and they're going to say he didn't have a plan Probably more.

Courtney: 24:18

That's only 26 that they could confirm, maybe I could say okay, maybe the first one he didn't kill intentionally or he didn't plan to kill, right, but then afterwards he was putting them all in the same places. He was doing the same thing. How is that not premeditated? I know that's obviously premeditated. What state were we in again?

Hannah: 24:36

We're in Vancouver, we're in Canada, oh, that's right. Something, though, that really enraged me Nothing ever came of the other 20 charges. What, why, don't know, didn't say. Cool, he was to serve a life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years. More evidence has been found since then, and more women are still missing, though, in a plot twist, as of this year, robert Pickton is dead. Though, in a plot twist, as of this year, robert picton is dead. He was assaulted in prison at 74 years old by an inmate back in may and died in the hospital. Not sure why this person decided to off him.

Courtney: 25:16

But I mean, considering there's such a train of people that he had killed, I mean there's a good chance that somebody was related or something yeah, there's a good chance that there was some revenge stuff happening there, but that's why we're picked it. That took a very different turn than I was expecting from the beginning. I'm really glad it didn't take a cannibal place. I did have fears initially about the cannibal piece. I don't know what it is about. The about cannibals.

Hannah: 25:40

I just can't so john's the same way.

Courtney: 25:43

My brother, he can't I can stomach a lot, but the idea of I think it's more so not. I mean, it's really disgusting. But it's the people who trick other people into eating the victims, and that's what? Yes, it really makes you question like whose house am I going to? What are they? Feeding me everybody be secure about whose house you're going to and eating this looks like a meat.

Hannah: 26:05

I'm not sure about so funny story. This was real meat, but I just have to say it. So I dated this guy in high school that was like, strictly italian, strictly italian. So I go to his his actually he lived with his grandparents at the time went to his grandparents place and of course they're very italian and they wrap their meat in the twine. Yeah, and I'm looking at this. I'm like what is this? So like it's sausage? I'm like, but why is there rope around it? And like, oh, just snip it off? I'm like, but there's, there's twine on my meat why is there?

Hannah: 26:40

twine on my meat so it was real sausage I mean to this day I hope I was. I was only like 15, like I had no idea what the fuck was going on.

Courtney: 26:46

But if it wasn't, it's well out of your system now.

Hannah: 26:50

I was just a naive white girl like I mean. I know italians are white too. I don't know where I'm going with that, but I'm just gonna stop right now. Anyways, that's why I picked it, let's see. So I have the seven of clubs I had to think about that. It's actually unidentified. They don't have a name for this person. So sad. On june 4th 2014, an unidentified black male body was discovered at town neck beach in sandwich affixed to a two-wheel dolly, the. The head, arms and legs were removed. The victim was approximately 5'8 to 6' tall, 220 to 230 pounds. Had a three to four inch scar on his abdomen's right side. Associated with the body was a blue t-shirt printed with. I got serviced and Cranston Windustrial DNA testing resulted in the facial composite, which they do have on the card. If you have any info about this case, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE. That is so sad. That's so sad. Oh God. I'm really sorry to hear that, but if you have any information, there's a number. Well, thank you, wanderers. Thank you, courtney, for having me.

Courtney: 28:01

I'm so glad I got to wrap up that gem of a case you're working on. I'm ready to move on.

Hannah: 28:07

I don't know where to go from this, though onwards and upwards, but honestly, if you guys have any suggestions, please email us at wickedwanderingspodcastcom or you can text us. If you go on, what's it best?

Courtney: 28:19

Yeah, we don't get enough text messages. We don't.

Hannah: 28:22

Unfortunately, we can't text you back because for some reason, they don't allow us to Confidentiality. We will read them on here, we'll read them on the air, and Hannah needs water, apparently. Okay Well, thank you, wanderers. Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick, music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering.