Courtney: 0:00

Today on my way here, I was behind a car that had a bumper sticker that says do you follow Jesus that closely? And then the light turned green. And I'm telling Pizza man on the phone about how that's what it says, and the light turns green and they're sitting there. They're sitting there, so I honked the horn. And do you know that these people sat there and honked the horn back at me Really and then drove away. Pizza man was like did they just honk back at you for honking because they sat through most of the green light? I was like yeah, and then I yelled Jesus, take the wheel. Which?

Rob Fitz: 0:34

was not totally appropriate, but Okay.

Hannah: 0:46

Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Courtney: 0:52

Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.

Hannah: 0:58

This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi Hannah and hi Rob. Thank you for joining us today. Hello, I think the Wanderers thought you went missing. Well, who do you think does all the producing in the back end? Kenzie, yeah, kenzie's very good producer. Okay, first of all, this was a rabbit hole and I know, courtney, you love, I love a good rabbit hole. This was. This was amazing. I had so much fun with this one. I want to talk about the yosemite park killer. Okay, do you know about the yosemite park killer? Just the name. Do you rob know about the yosemite Park Killer? Okay, do you know about the Yosemite Park Killer? Just the name. Do you, rob, know about the Yosemite Park Killer?

Rob Fitz: 1:47

No.

Hannah: 1:48

Okay, but I feel I cannot talk about the case until I talk about who Stephen Stainer is. Okay. Do you guys know about Stephen Stainer?

Rob Fitz: 1:57

Negative.

Hannah: 1:58

Not at all. This is gonna be great. Okay, I probably should say a disclaimer. Guys like some of this can get really.

Rob Fitz: 2:04

Graphic.

Hannah: 2:04

Yeah, so Graphic advisory. Beware Stephen was the miracle case of the decade, but I think he was a person with the worst luck ever. On December 4th 1972, seven-year-old Stephen Stainer was waiting for his mom to pick him up after school. She got delayed, as moms do, and she got to the school late, but Stephen was not there anymore. She figured probably oh, he went off with some friends or he'll come back later. A couple hours go by and they end up deciding to call the police because he didn't come home. Apparently, stephen was approached by a man named Kenneth Parnell and another man named Murphy, which I don't know where this guy Murphy comes into it, because I feel like he was never mentioned in anything else. Just say two men at this point, but Parnell is a big part of this. He asked Stephen if his mom would want to donate to his church and he said yeah, his mom probably would like to do so. So Cass was like great, we'll give you a ride home and we'll talk to her.

Rob Fitz: 2:58

Do you know what kind of church? No, I do not. No, I do not.

Hannah: 3:01

Oh, okay, but since there was no church, Guess it didn't matter.

Courtney: 3:06

Guess it didn't matter.

Hannah: 3:07

They passed Stephen's street and they said oh, we'll ask your parents if you can stay the night. Okay, seems creepy, very creepy. Next night came same thing. Oh, let's call your parents see if you can stay another night with us. Next thing Stephen knows Parnell says that he went to court and got custody of Stephen and his parents didn't want him anymore. Soon Stephen's name got changed to Dennis Parnell and meanwhile Stephen's family was trying not to lose hope that their brother and son would return home. Stephen's mom would not leave the house for two to three years unless someone was there to answer the phone or the door. So right now, in terms of crime, we are looking at a kidnapping right. Steven started calling parnell dad, he would go to school, he made friends and he continued his life, which is just so absolutely creepy to me. And again, just so you guys know, I didn't really say where this was this is near yosemite so that part I figured because of the way that it was related.

Hannah: 3:58

Yeah, friends were actually interviewed and said that they obviously knew him as denn Dennis and that he would have, like dirty fingernails, holes in his shoes. Parnell would let him smoke. So like probably a DCF case if it was now. But they just said he's a quiet, subdued kid and that he hung out with them and just seemed to be kind of quiet.

Rob Fitz: 4:18

How old was he?

Hannah: 4:19

So he was kidnapped when he was seven. I'll tell you in a second how long he was there, for Parnell would move them to like a different area, because he would figure out that he's under speculation of something.

Hannah: 4:28

Right, there's something off about this. Where did this kid come from? As Stephen got older, parnell tried to get Stephen involved in helping him pick up boys oh boy, but Stephen wanted nothing to do with it. Parnell did end up getting a new boy, new boy. So basically, stephen came home and there's this five-year-old child there and Parnell's like great, you got a little brother now. And the child's name is Timmy White, five years old, from Ukiah, california. Stephen did not want the same things to happen to Timmy that happened to him so during a night and, mind you, this is seven years later. This kid's been stuck with Parnell for seven years. Yeah, so he's 14, 15 at that point.

Hannah: 5:05

During the night he hitchhiked with timmy from point arena to ukiah, which I believe was about like 30 miles, during a rainy, dark night and steven found the police station with timmy and said I think my name is steven interesting right, imagine being the police officer standing there, like okay, first of all, what do you mean?

Hannah: 5:21

you think your name is steven, yeah, march 1st 1980, cops show up during the early hours of the stay in her household and said steven is in ukiah. So of course the parents are like, oh my god, we got to go there now and he's like no, like we have to talk to him first. This is a crime scene, we have to take care of this first. But on march 2nd 1980, steven is reunited with his family. Hundreds of people, including a media frenzy, is watching this reunion unfold. I can't imagine trying to reintegrate, being into a family you haven't seen in seven years. Right, they're calling you a different name. All of a sudden you have all these siblings you haven't seen in years. Your parents are probably all over you.

Courtney: 5:55

And the media. What an intimate, uncomfortable situation. I understand why the media makes a big spectacle of that. You know a success story which we don't often get, sadly. But I can't imagine how uncomfortable it is, just from what you were saying and then being like magnified yeah, especially since I'm sure for seven years parnell was telling him to stay out of the limelight. Right, right so and it's a personality trait now, he was quiet.

Hannah: 6:15

He didn't really enjoy being being a spectacle so he returned to his old room uh, old friends, possibly, and a new school, because he's now in high school and there was no privacy for Stephen for a while. The media would just find him at school, stalk him, ask him questions. Again, schools were different back in the early 80s, where you could just basically walk in and they would just find him and start asking him questions. Therapy was brought up, which he probably should have done, but Stephen's dad was against it. He didn't like psychologists or psychiatrists. He said, like basically, keep your problems to yourself. Stephen said he didn't want to either, but I'm not sure if that was more of the influence of his father or something he just didn't want to talk about.

Hannah: 7:05

We're both, yeah, other Carrie was quote, unquote off. According to one of the sisters, Carrie was feeling neglected and not feeling important. There was actually part of a story where they were all sitting down to dinner and Stephen's like there's a spot missing and the parents are like oh right, Carrie, we need to get a place for him. So like totally kind of forgotten about and wasn't good.

Rob Fitz: 7:20

How many siblings did Stephen have?

Hannah: 7:22

So there was Stephen, carrie and two sisters and maybe one more brother. There was five of them. So of course there has to be court and there were charges against Parnell. Surprisingly, this got me so bad. Parnell was convicted in abduction prior to taking Stephen. Oh oh, that's good. And he served a little time for it and obviously got out. Served a little time for it, wow, but it's only going to get worse. Talk of abuse came up, but Stephen denied it happening. Then the police found Polaroids of Stephen naked and they had to call Stephen and have him talk about it. June 8th 1981, the judge gave the toughest sentence he could for the kidnapping of Timmy, which was seven years.

Hannah: 8:00

I'm sorry Kidnapping the toughest the judge could do is seven years. Oh, but it gets worse. Oh, december 1st 1981, steven testified against parnell and confirmed the sodomy and oral sex acts on the stand. Parnell would receive another 84 months. But since parnell already got the max for timmy, because of the current statues in the state it had to be only 20 months.

Courtney: 8:27

So to clarify he kidnapped Timmy and he kidnapped Stephen, but prior to both of those he had kidnapped yes, he had some kind of kidnapping charge. Yes, so this is a man who's kidnapped at bare minimum three times.

Hannah: 8:39

Yes.

Courtney: 8:40

And they're like well, we've already given him the maximum, so shruggy emoji, because he clearly learned his lesson the last time. Oh yeah, totally did. He just doubled it and did it again. Yep, major douche canoe.

Hannah: 8:50

Yep major douche canoe. Because of Stephen testifying to the abuse, he started to be bullied. Of course Kids are mean. They started calling him names like the F word. Oh, I don't mind the say online. The principal was interviewed and I'm going to quote what he said because it pissed me off.

Courtney: 9:07

And here I am quoting.

Hannah: 9:07

We have a good bunch of kids at our school and therefore I see no problem with it all in the immediate future. Of course steve's going to have a hard time not having girls chase him down the street and this kind of thing, but other than that there's no problem huh what the flying fuck history.

Courtney: 9:24

Children, education and sexuality related issues really bother me.

Hannah: 9:29

Yep so, as you can imagine, steven kind of spiraled. He started drinking heavy, he indulged in some pot, took pills, he wrecked some cars and then he just started having sex with basically whatever girl would want to come at him and of course, I think he was just trying to prove something to people, which is just to himself.

Courtney: 9:47

It seems like maybe like he was afraid that people were thinking he was one particular way. And when you're a child and somebody forces things, on you that doesn't make you anything other than a victim.

Rob Fitz: 9:56

Yeah, so by this time he's what?

Hannah: 9:58

16, 17 I mean depending on 15. After high school he ended up meeting his future wife, judy Edmonton. Stephen was 19. She was 16. But hey, it was the 80s. They ended up having two children together and everyone said he was a good dad, which was like, oh, like, finally like stuff's coming together for him. There was like interviews I watched and you just you see that he was trying right, he was trying to build up his life again and Hollywood ended up approaching him about making a movie about his experience, and so he said yes, even though his mom didn't want him to, because she's like I think too much media has been on him for years. I think he needs a break.

Hannah: 10:35

But then he's like well, I kind of need the money, so I got kids to raise. It ended up being aired in two parts on May 22nd and 23rd 1989. And it was called I Know my First Name is Steven. Nearly 40 million viewers tuned in, making it NBC's highest rated miniseries in five years. Wow. The Emmys were approaching and people were hoping to acknowledge him in a speech of some sort, if they got one. Steven passed away the night before the Emmys in a hit and run while he was on his motorcycle.

Courtney: 11:04

Wow, oh my gosh.

Hannah: 11:06

Yeah, this kid has the worst luck I think I've ever seen. And there's a great documentary I watched that put some clips in there. It was called Captive Audience. It's a three-parter. I thought they did a great job with it. Remember that crappy sentence that Parnell got, which one In 2004,. He was arrested again for trying to purchase a child Purchase.

Rob Fitz: 11:30

I'm sorry.

Courtney: 11:31

I guess maybe they should have been. This is like one of those times where you have to be very specific about what you mean. You don't steal a child. Now he's trying to purchase a child, so he must have learned that you can't steal them. So now he's trying to do other things.

Hannah: 11:44

But don't worry, the court system learned their lesson this time, because he was sentenced to life in prison but something about the exchange of money, yes, but he died in 2008, so he only served four years. Did somebody kill him? Not that I know I wouldn't be shocked. I don't know why I want to say it was cancer, but I could be wrong karma this did not stop the curse that seems to be on the family.

Hannah: 12:07

Oh, remember carrie. Yeah, he was working at the cedar lodge near yosemite national park. The curse that seems to be on the Stainer family oh, remember Carrie. Yeah, he was working at the Cedar Lodge near Yosemite National Park. When three people go missing.

Courtney: 12:16

I was wondering where this connection was going to come into play.

Hannah: 12:22

While doing research on Carrie, I found some interesting background information on the Stainer family as a whole, minus the whole thing with their son getting kidnapped and then showing up again and having a life and then dying. The mother was physically and emotionally abused when she was younger, so she was not a very affectionate mother. Interesting though, the father was a little too affectionate and was said to be molesting his daughters. Oh my god. So I don't know how much truth that is, because I did read a book on the yosemite Killer. It's called the Yosemite Park Killer by Jack Rosewood. It's super tiny, it's like a hundred page read. You know sometimes with how small these books are. I don't know how accurate information is, but that is what one person said when diving into the family tree of the Stainers, like going back generations, there's histories of alcoholism, mental illness, sexual abuse and all other abuses that you could think of.

Courtney: 13:11

So this family is not what you would call I don't want to say wholesome but like, like that white picket fence, yeah, all-american, traditional for that time, kind of family. They struggled, they were on the struggle bus.

Hannah: 13:23

Carrie was born on August 12, 1961, and at three was diagnosed with trichotillomania, which, for those of you that do not know it's a compulsive behavior pulling out your hair. Carrie seemed to always have some mental health problems that were never addressed. He would fantasize about killing the checkout clerk when he was seven he was molested by his uncle and when steven returned home the parents forgot to set a place for him at the table, which I told told you guys about that story. So this kid's basically forgot about.

Hannah: 13:49

When you see media coverage of Steven, you just see Carrie like in the background, just ominously, with like just a really sad face, like his kind of like furrowed brow. There's one point where if you watch the media frenzy, he just like walks away and goes. He's just like. I really don't want anything to do with this anymore. One positive thing in his life was drawing and the outdoors. He loved Yosemite. It was his happy place. Fun fact he had a Bigfoot sighting, oh man, and was a huge advocate for the belief in Bigfoot, which I don't know. I just thought that tickled me pink it's not Ted Bundy, but at 21 minutes and 39 seconds.

Hannah: 14:25

We're about before the killing started he was in therapy and they wanted him to start group therapy but he was like nope, I'm done and just started to work at the cedar lodge. February 1999, three women go missing a mom, carol sund, her daughter julie, and an argentinian exchange student that they had, sylvina peloso. They were visiting the area for sightseeing and checking out colleges. The next day they were supposed the area for sightseeing and checking out colleges. The next day they were supposed to leave for arizona and meet up with carol's husband. They were supposed to meet at an airport, probably connecting flight travel to arizona together, but they never showed and he thought that was a little strange. Like this isn't like my wife, she's very particular. I know that she would have the flights, the flight plan, maybe it got delayed so he decided to keep going on to arizona without them. Interesting. I thought that was interesting. Oh, but this is also interesting.

Courtney: 15:14

He got to arizona, played around a golf and then decided to check on things which like I think there was a different time back then, so we weren't always like used to being connected the way that we are now, but I still think that's odd.

Hannah: 15:27

It's odd, yeah, I mean like did you need something to take your mind off of it, but like there were so many phones you passed.

Courtney: 15:32

Yeah, getting off the plane and going to go right of golf, right, yeah.

Hannah: 15:38

He called the car rental place and they said the car was never returned. He called the lodge next and they said they never returned the room key. The room was checked and it didn't look like. You know, mass murder happened there, but they some strange things that they noticed where there was a pillow and a blanket missing and the bag of their souvenirs was still there, which, if you're gonna spend money on that shit right, so they hadn't checked out.

Rob Fitz: 15:59

It's kind of right I've taken a pillow from a hotel before I would never take a pillow from a hotel.

Courtney: 16:05

I think I have any right heads have been on that.

Rob Fitz: 16:08

This was when I was a kid.

Courtney: 16:10

Oh, before you thought about germs on the pillow?

Rob Fitz: 16:12

Yeah, exactly.

Hannah: 16:13

Okay, so where's the car Right? That wasn't there. Local police got involved and also, interestingly, the FBI did, because of the exchange unit that was involved. That makes sense. Yeah, they end up finding the car off the road in the woods, burned, with two bodies that later get identified as carol's son and sylvina peloso so where's the other, where's your? Right. So the police get a letter in the mail and it said quote we had fun with this one end. Quote who's we I will get to the we okay with a map showing where the body is.

Hannah: 16:45

The police were excited about this. They said great, we know where the body is going to be and we have dna on this letter. The police will later learn. Carrie paid someone five dollars to spit into a cup so he could put the spit on the envelope wow yeah, and of course he changed his handwriting and he also said we, so that would throw people off more than one person.

Hannah: 17:05

They follow the map and they did find julie propped against a tree, decaying. Obviously she'd been there a couple days. Soon, another woman is found dead, named joey ruth armstrong, who was 26. It is said carrie approached her and started talking about his bigfoot sightings cool, see bigfoot sightings, don't talk to people about those. When he determined she was alone, he got her in the house at gunpoint and bound and gagged her. He told her originally that he was going to only rob her, but it started getting dark and he brought her back outside to his car.

Hannah: 17:38

I think this girl obviously had a sixth sense because she's like what the fuck is this about? He started to drive but Joey was not going quietly so she dived out of the window of his car and began to run into the woods. Carrie gave chase, finally caught up to her and sliced her throat and ended up decapitating her head. But without her struggle the police would not have caught him because of all the dna that she had gotten in the car on him under his nails, because of the struggle she had left. So really she probably saved lots of people, because carrie did say that if he wasn't stopped he probably would have kept killing Definitely a sick individual yes.

Hannah: 18:14

One of the most interesting things to me is apparently Carrie asked for a movie to be made about his life.

Courtney: 18:22

That's a big attention-seeking thing, Nope definitely not Jealous of his brother.

Hannah: 18:28

I'm torn, though, about this, because you can see why he would right you thought, what my brother did. He was a big hero and he had a great life. I'm going to give you guys a better tale. But also he was a man with secrets and not someone who liked the attention and limelight, because you see him leaving media frenzies. When his brother came home, In the book I read he claimed to want the movie to give the proceeds to the victim's families.

Courtney: 18:56

But this was not said in the documentary, just that he wanted a movie like he asked all the attention.

Hannah: 18:58

Yeah, he asked the media, so I don't know even the letter. Like we know, this from.

Courtney: 19:00

You know, cousin mark is an episode. Yep, the letters where they're taunting the police and they're telling them hey, this is where it's going to be. They want that recognition and they want them to find it, because without that there's no media coverage. All that work they did was for nothing, nothing, right.

Hannah: 19:13

So I am going to actually tell you what actually happened with the three women, and supposedly this is what happened. The night of the crime, stainer knocked on their door at 11 pm and he had actually said that he went knocking around to different rooms that had no one in it, just so they could hear like maintenance on everyone's door.

Hannah: 19:30

so they knew like, oh okay, they're just coming around to check something calculated, very calculated very calculated stater knocked on their door and he asked to be led into the room to check a leak. And I guess they didn't want to let him in and he's like okay, well then I'll have to go to the front desk and have you move to a different room. And they're like fine, we'll, we'll just let you in. He goes straight to the bathroom and after being in there a bit he merges with a gun, he bounds and gags them and ends up putting the two girls in the bathroom while he strangles the mom to death. So while he's strangling Carol and this is something he said later and I'm quoting I didn't realize how hard it is to strangle a person. Stainer said late in his taped confession it's not easy. I had very little feeling. It was like performing a task.

Courtney: 20:13

Hmm, yeah, there's some sociopathy going on there? Yes, very much so, and you know how I feel about sociopaths.

Hannah: 20:18

Yes, he puts Carol's body into the rental car in the trunk and went back to the girls and I quote he dragged Sun's body outside and placed it in the trunk of the rented Pontiac Grand Prix, then went back into the motel room where the two girls waited. He cut the girls' clothes off and tried to get them to perform sex acts on each other. But Sylvina could not stop crying, stainer said. He became so irritated by her sobs that he took her into the bathroom and strangled her while she knelt in the bathtub, Although at one point Stainer said that none of his victims had been sexually assaulted. He then raped Julie both in the family's motel room and the room next door, toward the end just forcing his flaccid penis into her mouth, gagging her as he struggled to regain his erection.

Hannah: 20:54

So he then put Sylvina in the trunk where Carol's body is, put their stuff into the car so it looks like they left, and then put Julie in the passenger seat. He took her duct tape off and made her have small talk that's what you imagine.

Courtney: 21:09

I think that would be the worst part of the whole thing. Like you just did all these things to me, you forced me to do all this. I watched you kill people and now you're making me have to sit here and talk to you like I just let me be fiery, mad, or yeah, or sad, or upset, scared even okay, here I am gonna quote again.

Hannah: 21:25

she was a very likable girl. He said she was very calm. I told her I wished I could keep her. Instead he he raped her again, told her I loved her and slit her throat, driving the knife so deeply into her throat that he almost severed her head. And then it just goes on to say that he hid Julie's body in the brush and everything. Then this motherfucker hauled a cab and asked the passenger do you believe in Bigfoot? To his driver Huh, Definitely he's a peculiar guy, Definitely hitting all the sociopath check the passenger.

Courtney: 21:53

Do you believe in bigfoot to his driver? Huh, definitely your guy. Definitely hitting all the like sociopath checkpoints yeah can do something, be so cold and just not consider the other person's feelings.

Rob Fitz: 22:01

No empathy at all there I'd like to know more about that conversation, like did the taxi driver say yes? Did the taxi driver say no?

Courtney: 22:08

I feel like if you say yes, then you're next at knife point. So hopefully he he was like never heard of him.

Hannah: 22:12

So it did say that the cab driver, Jenny Paul, later remembered her passenger who asked to be driven to Yosemite Lodge, where his young brother's abductor had once worked, and the strange conversation they had along the way. And that's when he asked do you believe in Bigfoot? When he might as well have been talking about the boogeyman.

Rob Fitz: 22:30

Hmm, so the taxi driver said no.

Courtney: 22:33

And it was a female taxi driver.

Hannah: 22:35

Which is interesting because you would have expected by his pattern that you would have taken that opportunity and there were some other people that said, oh, I remember being at the hot tub at the lodge and him being in the hot tub with me and striking up conversations and I was like why is this guy so uncomfy? Like that sixth sense, right, we talk about, we're like you're coming off as a really nice dude, very handsome, but why are you still giving me the creeps? Sometimes you just know, sometimes you know. In 2000, he got life without parole for the death of Joey. July 2002, he went to trial for the three women. He received the death penalty and is still awaiting execution at San Quentin State Prison. And that, my friends, is the story of the Stainer family and the Yosemite Park Killer. There's so much to that, so much, so much. I agree.

Rob Fitz: 23:21

Did you pick this story? Because it has a lot of Bigfoot talk in it.

Hannah: 23:24

No, I didn't know anything about the Bigfoot until I started reading.

Courtney: 23:28

And then it really just sold it to her. Yeah, bigfoot.

Hannah: 23:33

I knew I, and then it really just sold it to her yeah, bigfoot, I knew I was gonna do the yosemite park killer right. And then I was on tiktok, as one does, and the girl was saying, oh my gosh, you guys need to watch this documentary that's titled captive audience on hulu. So I started watching it and I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is the stater family, this is the same stater family that carries it. And I was like, oh my god, this is a rabbit hole. So that's how it ended up coming along.

Courtney: 23:54

It's definitely. It has my wheels turning because you're looking at was he was carrie, always that way. Were the things that happened to his brother part of the lack of attention? What was the home? Life like when his mom was like wouldn't leave the house. Yep, what was that abuse like between his father and him? Right?

Hannah: 24:09

and there's different perspectives, but sounds like the dad was like just totally beside himself when steven went missing and wasn't paying attention to anybody and he was just distraught all the time which makes sense so it's like it seemed like the family was finally trying to find some peace while it was happening and then steven ends up showing up and he's this huge hero and they have people outside their house all the time wanting to know everything. But then, you know, things start getting back to normal again and then steven dies. Now he's this huge hero and they have people outside their house all the time wanting to know everything. But then, you know, things start getting back to normal again and then steven dies. Now he's back into the media. He's all the attention's back on him again.

Hannah: 24:39

So I feel bad for steven from what basically I know, because it sounded like this kid had such a bad run and he finally seemed to find some sort of happiness with a wife and kids, and then he fucking dies and, like one of the worst ways I could think of, didn't have a fighting chance. I don't know. It's like could harry blame steven and what happened with the way he was? Probably, but I don't think that's all it.

Courtney: 25:03

I think there's a mental health issue in this family oh definitely a lot of trauma and it's a complicated family like, even if you look at like okay, what happened to steven?

Courtney: 25:12

steven was the victim of kidnapping and abuse and sexual abuse and so then for him to become the perpetrator who did those things, essentially to steven to other people right, not as long term as steven's situation. I always come back to that behavioristic, like it's, attention seeking behavior, and you have some people who will find negative attention just as reinforcing as positive attention. Carrie knew there was no way he was going to get that attention in a positive light compared to Stephen, and then Stephen died and he was glorified anyways because of everything that happened. So really the only way he stood a chance at getting any kind of recognition that same scale was to do something bad. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Chance at getting any kind of recognition that same scale was to do something bad.

Hannah: 25:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It just boggles my mind too, where he was kind of had this obsession with the daughter and saying I loved her, I wanted to keep her. Was he searching for love but not knowing how to do it appropriately? And there was also when he was in prison he had a pen pal that was a married woman, but she said that no, it was nothing like that. I just wanted to talk to him but then he was like, oh, your husband's so lucky to have you like, please contact me anytime you want. He's lacking. He's lacking things. He's trying to fill a hole and he's just not doing it the right way. So he boggles my mind. I feel like he's an interesting one. He did try to plead insanity but didn't work.

Courtney: 26:38

If only his family had believed in therapy and things and they had some kind of diagnosis on him maybe. I mean he did.

Hannah: 26:43

He probably isn't saying he did do a little therapy, but it sounded like when they wanted to up the ante a little bit and do group, he was like fuck this, I'm leaving. I don know. I feel like you could dissect this way more.

Courtney: 26:54

You could, I would be really interested to hear, like from a psychological perspective or doing research into when somebody I mean obviously and we see it a lot at work where, like, one child is affected or impacted by autism and the other child is not that attention difference, that care difference, the exceptions that happen? I is not that attention difference, that care difference, the exceptions that happen. I can imagine that when one child goes through neglect or abuse or something even worse like kidnapping, I can imagine the same kind of phenomenon happens.

Hannah: 27:25

Do they say at all where all the other siblings ended up In the documentary? One of the siblings, a sister, was interviewed, and then they also had Stephen's daughter and son that are now grown up, which they're like around between your age and my age right now.

Rob Fitz: 27:39

That makes sense.

Hannah: 27:40

Yeah, it was like the beginning of the 90s and then they had Carrie and Stephen's mom on there, which was interesting to watch her Because there was something she's like. I'm not talking about that.

Courtney: 27:49

We love a queen with boundaries.

Hannah: 27:51

I think that was about it for family. Oh and uh.

Rob Fitz: 27:54

Steven's wife I was, she was curious about that she was on there as well.

Hannah: 27:59

It was interesting. I mean, the sister definitely talked about how she kind of prodded steven for details and then when she did she really regretted it because then she couldn't get it out of her head. Yeah, it's this family. I just can't imagine like you have this brother and then he died, and then you have this other brother and you lose him too in a way, yeah it's.

Courtney: 28:17

It's hard how I feel, like some families are I don't want to say boring, because that makes this sound like it's exciting in a positive way. But some families have all this stuff that happens and you can't even believe it, and then some are just boring. There's just nothing there. I mean, I guess boring is a good thing in this situation, but that poor family, they went through a lot yeah, you got these families like everything happens to them everything somewhere in the world's timing and planning.

Hannah: 28:41

You guys were just set to have this go on well, that might be like I don't want to think of the romanovs like, but they, they all got killed. It's just like. Why does this stuff happen to like to one family? It's?

Courtney: 28:53

it's just crazy it also makes you wonder if there's like more to it. Yeah, you know like a hit and run. Well, or was the person connected? You hate to say that and I'm sure they looked into that, given who he was, but I don't know. Maybe it's too much time. And true crime. I'm always connected.

Rob Fitz: 29:10

Don't trust anyone right you know some families are just cursed.

Courtney: 29:14

I mean, look at the kennedys oh the kennedys is something I would love to dive into.

Hannah: 29:18

You need like a 19 part episode oh god yeah I bet there's no bigfoot in that one though hey, he does creep up where you least expect he does.

Courtney: 29:26

I really didn't look for him.

Hannah: 29:27

He always comes back.

Rob Fitz: 29:29

well, there's a uh a in New York City, in Central Park. What you never heard about that one. So yeah, rfk, he hit a bear in New York and they were going down to New York City and then he had a reservation at some restaurant and he decided that he no longer wanted to keep the bear because he was going to eat the bear, you know, because you can consume bear. And so he dumped it in New York City and everyone's like oh, how is this bear here? Where did this bear come from? And then, years later, recently, he confessed to leaving this bear in Central Park. You've never heard that.

Hannah: 30:08

And he's in office. Good fucking Lord yeah.

Rob Fitz: 30:11

And. I guess it wasn't a person's body, it was just a bear I mean it could have been a bigfoot body, but no, it was a bear, are we?

Courtney: 30:30

pick a card, any card. Michelle Dower On December 10th 2013,. The victim was found stabbed several times at the intersection of Broadway and Congress Avenue in Chelsea. If you have any info about this case, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE.

Hannah: 30:49

What's her name again?

Courtney: 30:50

Michelle Dower, d-a-u-w-e-r. And what's the card? We are the six of spades.

Rob Fitz: 30:58

Are we sure they're spades?

Courtney: 31:02

Yes, I'm not the one who has issues with the clue. You know, spade, we call a spade.

Rob Fitz: 31:08

a spade Because it looks like a shovel.

Courtney: 31:11

And I just know that it's a spade a spade because it looks like a shovel and I just know that it's a spade, in what town was this again? Chelsea ah the lighting in here is so dark that it's in a very thin red and I'm like what does that?

Rob Fitz: 31:22

say it says chelsea, chelsea. Hence why we don't do a video podcast, because it's too dark in here yeah, we don't like the big light. Hannah's vigorously shaking her head no, as if anyone on the podcast can see her well, thank you, hannah, thank you.

Courtney: 31:36

We do love a good rabbit hole and I feel like we've had quite a few rabbit holes in a row. On this one side note, I will update everybody from the camp windigo episode that I did. I did not get an email back from the individual that we emailed from the blog post.

Courtney: 31:52

um, I did check again this morning. We tried. You know what, though? That email could be 10, 20 years old. We don't actually know. So if we do get an email back, I'll be sure to update everybody, but for right now the update is no email reply back.

Hannah: 32:04

Well, thank you for trying.

Courtney: 32:05

Yeah, and if this man is listening, I won't say your name because it was part of your email address.

Hannah: 32:11

And we should have some collab coming up, we do.

Courtney: 32:14

We have quite a few people. We did a little bit of a different marketing push, changed some of our backend administrative stuff and we're excited we have some groups that would like to collaborate with us, woohoo. So some new faces, excellent, or voices, sure Face voices In the flesh, in the virtual flesh.

Hannah: 32:31

That was for you, cousin. Work. All right, guys. Thank you, bye, bye, wanderers. Thanks for listening today. Wicked wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and co-hosted by me, Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick music by Sasha.

Hannah: 32:46

And if you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering.